To find it almost impossible to move from being friendly with people to being friends?

[RessicaJabbit]

So, I always feel like people are friendly with me, but we're not friends.

They'll stop and chat etc at school drop off, around village, at work etc and all that

It's really hard when there's people you know only met a few months ago or whatever,and they're merrily chatting about how they had great fun at x place together last night, or the group of colleagues all went to a bar the other night, mums at the school,who happily discuss going for a coffee after drop off in front of me.

I have tried inviting people to events/pub/walks whatever, with kids in tow if they want a distraction etc but generally they don't respond or come along. I have done this in the Year 1 group chat, face to face etc. other people invite the larger group,and we go along and then discover that oh so and so are going to their house after to play etc.

It makes me a bit sad, my SIL for example, has a whole host of friends they're always going over each others, on holidays, days out etc. but if we invite them out or over, they're always busy etc. a new colleague joined in October and already is invited out on nights out etc...

Now yes, I get it... the problem must be me ... But I don't know what it is that makes me not really have friends.

This is so true. Robin Dunbar has written some excellent stuff on this. He suggest concentric circles of 5,25,125. To form a deep and lasting friendship you need to "have a vacancy" in that inner circle - for some of us that is quite full of close family ( for example my sister fufils the role of closest friend, I am also very close to my Mum and my adult daughter, so my need for very close female friendship is reduced) the other thing is time, intimacy only happens over long hours spent together. In my next level I have people I have know for 20 years ( some for 45)this also includes aunts, cousins people I met at school, at University and baby groups, I have maybe 2 spaces in this ring over a year, I will be picky about who gets invited in. The next ring 125 includes incindental friends, colleagues I get on with, school gate mums, football mums, my children's friends' parents, neighbours. People I will happily spend time with ( group dinners, coffee in or out) but they don't know the secrets of my heart. If you are someones 1/125 it won't feel especially close.

I can relate OP, I often think the same, and especially so when I had my baby and was attending a weekly baby group. There were a couple of mums that I always sat with and chatted to and it was part of the group to have a tea afterwards, but it never progressed to anything outside of that like playdates etc and I haven't seen either of them since I returned to work.

I am lucky that I have a strong group of friends from school, but outside of them, I've only made a couple of 'proper' (ie, people I'd meet up with alone) friends since I was around 16!

One thing I did want to ask, when you say colleagues at work go out for drinks etc could these be things anyone could join? Because in my experience, normally work colleagues going out after work is a pretty open invite (unless it's a particular group of friends).

Could it be that you are missing opportunities to attend things like that because you feel a little awkward that it might be 'invite only'?

I struggled with meaningful friendships in my first few decades, but I've leaned a lot and am now blessed with some wonderful friendships. For what it's worth, here are my suggestions.

Think about the energy you give out. Neediness and insecurity are draining. Light-heartedness, genuine warmth and generosity of spirit are uplifting.

Be very careful with being self deprecating. Being able to laugh at yourself is really important, but too much and it becomes awkward for the other person. It needs lightness of touch.

Similarly, don't overshare in the mistaken belief that it will foster a closer connection. It won't, certainly not in the early stages of friendship.

Do not attempt to befriend people indiscriminately. Think about adolescent boys who are desperate for a girlfriend - literally any girlfriend. Again, it's really off-putting. Friendship if the same, it needs chemistry.

Watch out for anxiety induced monologuing.

Most importantly, you fundamentally have to be good company, which generally involves being fun. That doesn't mean you have to be funny, which isn't the same thing. But things like having shared values, being a good listener, being kind, being thoughtful etc are things that help sustain and deepen friendships in the longer term. In the short term, though, it's about being good company.

I don’t have an answer for you (wish I did!) - but I feel the same. I’m 50, very likely neurodivergent in some way and really struggle with how to make friends. Like you, I’m friendly, I initiate conversations and ask questions, make conversation. But it doesn’t translate into the kind of easygoing ‘friendship that I see other women having. I don’t do coffee meet-ups or go for walks. No one has ever asked me! And I’m too insecure now to broach asking someone else for that.
Ive spent my life like this and for the most part I’ve just come to accept that this is the way it is.

I have a similar experience, though I’m autistic. It makes it even harder as people seem to filter you out socially, even if you’re regularly seeing them and being friendly

I can no longer find the reply but earlier someone asked if OP is a people pleaser and I’d love to hear this thought expanded on.

I have the exact same problem and I am a people pleaser but I never considered that would be the reason. Last month I made an effort to rephrase my reply to someone who cancelled on me last minute. I was still polite but less “no worries at all I totally understand” than I may usually have been. Following that she was a lot warmer towards me and responded better than she does when I am nicer.

I am still a bit baffled and I’m beginning to suspect that for me this is indeed why people don’t bond as closely with me.

One thing that confuses me is that I see a lot of people who have quite obvious flaws (eg they’re always bitching behind peoples backs or they’re not very empathetic or they talk about themselves constantly) and they seem to have plenty of friends. Often their friends see their flaws but excuse it as just who the person is. As far as flaws go, isn’t a people pleaser one of the easier ones to deal with? Why is someone being a people pleaser such a turn off, seemingly more so than other flaws?

Is it that we come across as fake? Is it that there’s an emotional distance there?

I feel like I need a book on how to socialise like everyone else and it’s very embarrassing.

@EuclidianGeometryFan

This is very true. The issue is that a lot of people expect to jump from the outer layer of the acquaintanceship circle to the inner core and go from 0 to 60. It actually takes years to get to these sorts of friendships (once you're over the age of about 12), so this is highly unrealistic.

True friendships of this sort are incredibly rare. Most people only have a half-dozen in their lifetime and they are much harder to make maintain when you have children, spouses and full time jobs. Not having many friendships like this doesn't make you weird or different, its actually very normal.

Often people who appear to have loads of friends are just very extrovert and good at socialising. It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about how many intimate friendships they have. The issue is that other people often appear to have closer friendships than they actually are, and if you feel lonely or isolated these relationships are bound to engender some degree of envy or a sense of being cut off.

I think a lot of people would do themselves a favour if they focused on just enjoying other people's company and taking it as it comes, rather than trying to force friendships when they aren't there.

@Pawridge

Why is someone being a people pleaser such a turn off, seemingly more so than other flaws?

I really struggle with people pleasers: they make me very uncomfortable. To answer your question as to why:

• They make people feel constantly beholden to them because they are so "giving" that you instinctively feel in debt to them
• They feel a bit fake, as you say: if someone constantly expresses huge admiration for you, hangs on your every word and bends over backwards to do things for you it feels as if they are not truly being themselves.
• As an extension of the previous point: I often feel that people pleasers store up perceived sleights and resentments, pretend not to mind them at the time and then explode when they've all built up which leaves everyone feeling confused and blindsided and a bit pissed off that something which was tolerated at the time has become a huge issue.
• Humans at some really instinctive level don't respect people who they perceive to be weaker than them: harsh but true. If someone is doing everything to ingratiate themselves with others they appear not to have any real conviction or self-esteem. Sadly the flip side of this is they often get exploited by much stronger people which diminishes them further.

God, I don’t mean people’s private events. I mean when the mums she’s chatting to at the school gates say they’re going for a coffee (which was one of her examples). My point is mums meeting after drop off in the local shop isn’t usually an invite only event. It’s just whoever happens to be there. She probably seems disinterested.

Are you standing there mute?

OP I totally get this. I never find my people. I have hundreds of acquaintances but nobody I can call up for a chat or even go for a coffee with. I spent years being the one to keep in touch because I kept reading someone has to make the effort and if not me then who? But
nobody makes the effort with me. I’ve studied, been to groups and classes, volunteered etc I even put on my own events that people have raved about and nothing from it. Not a single invite from any of those activities has been reciprocated or mine accepted.

I came to the conclusion I’m one of those invisible people. Absolutely nothing wrong with me, people like me but I never come to mind. I’m essentially invisible when I’m not in front of people. Like object impermanence but it’s people impermanence.

Thank you for explaining. This makes a lot of sense and motivates me to want to change.

I've thought about this issue a lot over my lifetime. I have always had friends but know that I don't find it easy to make them the way others seem to. (Pre puberty they were just there, after puberty struck I realised I didn't know consciously how to make them!)

Part, if not all, of my issue is feeling people won't be interested in me (probably need psychoanalysis to find out why I feel that way!). If they are or if we "click", I'm fine. Otherwise I have to remind myself to be positive, upbeat and willing to make suggestions or give invites - and prepared for rejection, which is hard. Also it's not something I can sustain all the time, but it has worked for me when I've made the effort.

Definitely you can't seem needy or clingy. Or get too serious too quickly. But be willing to put yourself out a bit. I enjoy groups but prefer one to one. I see people who I meet only in a group as friends, but if we never meet one to one, I don't count them as close friends.

I've also met potential friends many times in my life which have fallen away due to circumstances; only some people truly last the distance. Makes me sad but I guess it's pretty common.

One thing I have noted though is being friendly with people in a particular situation - at work, school gate, shared interest group etc - never translates into real friendship unless you starting meeting outside that sphere.

@Pawridge

Thank you for explaining. This makes a lot of sense and motivates me to want to change.

Just to qualify my comments a bit: I'm not saying I don't like people who are kind, considerate or empathetic: I absolutely do. No one likes someone who is selfish or is a blowhard or a monologuer or a user.

It's more that instinctive sense you get from people that they are shaping themselves to fit what they think others want, which is really off-putting.

if you have ADHD it’s hard to maintain friendships as you have to make small talk, remember to check in, initiate meeting up etc. Dues that sound like things you do?

Well, it's easier to keep quiet than try and talk to them. It's boring trying, trying, trying and get nothing back, so I just sit there quietly usually. I stopped bothering to interject at work. Nobody listens to me. They just ask for help later and I help them.

Yes.

As I said... People are friendly. But they don't invite me places, they won't come out if I invite.

Literally, just last week I posted on the School WhatsApp saying "we're at this place on Saturday if anyone wants to join us"... Radio silence... Go to said place, bump into someone from the group and they merrily say"oh yes, us and 3 other parents on same group all decided to meet here, we're having a fab time... Must dash back to kids now..."

That kind of thing.

Oh yes, also invited about 6 kids in village to go trick or treating with DD on Friday, nothing. Today someone asks if the kids want to go T or Ting on Fri..... they all chime in, yes please! Sounds great!

Oh I’m so sorry really not sure how I can help. ❤️

I think it is incredibly difficult to make friends as others have said as an Adult . I have worked in places where I wasn’t part of the main social group but did manage to befriend a few others that did similar jobs to me .
I did always try to go to any social events I was invited to and was reasonably sociable . I was very shy growing up - so alcohol helped to break the ice for me .
i think school mums can be very difficult to befriend . I found that even at nursery stage some of them had known each other since the baby groups and were quite cliquey . I was lucky I had a friend at the same school .
For younger DC I clicked with some of the Mums , so it was slightly easier .

Is there any way that you can help out / join a committee/ parent council and try and chat to people there ? Or even if you don’t want to do that volunteer at events - Christmas fair .
i have a friend who recently moved hundreds of miles away with her DH and I was amazed at how easily she has formed close friendships . She is by nature very bubbly and warm ( as is her whole family ) . She did really make an effort to join various events and was able to strike up a conversation with at least one person . She is also religious ( which I am not ) and made a lot of friends through her church .

@Thepeopleversuswork has a lot of good advice.
You sound like an organiser OP. The fact that you've founded a group that is still running is great! People may be assuming that you're very together and have loads of friends because of this.
Sometimes people form groups because they want all the glory/ the friends for doing it. It doesn't read to me that this is true in your case, you sound lovely and you're being proactive.

However I was part of a group where the founding member once had a rant to me about how we were not appreciative to her having set up the group and all her efforts to keep it running. They expected ongoing praise and adulation for their efforts. Some of their behaviour suddenly made a lot of sense and it was very off putting.

Its really hard isnt it. Im 50s. My kids older. People dont put efforts in now. I tried the usual hobbies etc. Meet a mam through girls sport but again that took years to get going! Friend fizzled after 20yrs but a difficult time in her life but trust for me is gone now so would not go back to her. Friendships are such hard work now) i just give up i think

@RessicaJabbit do you live somewhere quite small/rural?

From the way you're describing it it sounds very much a small town vibe. Often in quite close-knit places friendships take decades to bed in and people are very reluctant to admit newcomers. Do you think there's some of that going on?

I can relate to this, so painfully. It's like everyone else seems to have this innate ability to connect and I have no clue how they go about it. It's troubled me for as long as I can remember and no amount of clubs etc has made a jot of difference.

Turns out I'm autistic and so this is likely the reason for me.

Sorry to hear of your struggles. I'm similar in the sense that I can never seem to make friends. I've always tried to make small talk at play groups/sessions etc but it never leads anywhere. I do actually have a "best friend" that I see fairly often but she has many other friends that she sees regularly and is a social butterfly. If I'm not seeing her, I don't see anyone. Plus we only became friends through our partners at the time so it wasn't someone I found on my own.

I'm fairly settled with my own company and do keep busy with family stuff and work, so often think maybe I don't have time for a friend. I must admit though, it would be nice to have a friend I've made all on my own that isn't hard work and someone to have a laugh with and hang out.

I joined some online apps (similar to dating but for friends) and didn't get far. Why is it so difficult, especially as so many people seem to be in the same boat. How do we find each other? 😂

Oh gosh this sounds like me to a T. I struggle a lot in groups especially if it's in a group more than 4 people. I just get 'lost' in it. I do have a couple of close friends but if it's a new group it can be a struggle.

Women are often diagnosed later than men with autism/ADHD, etc.
This test was used as part of my autism assessment to collect more evidence, but it was very very eye opening as to what traits I had.

https://embrace-autism.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/