Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

The boy apparently does have a 1:1 which seemed to be put in place rather quickly after OP's complaints when her child was hurt by this boy before the poo incident.

My son's EHCP didn't take years to come through, it did take months though but I appreciate its LA dependent and it doesn't surprise me at all to hear that it can take years.

Ed Davey (Lib Dem) talking about the proposed ban on Israeli people attending a football match :
'It is completely wrong to tackle anti Semitism by banning its victims.'
Swap 'antl Semitism' for 'bullying' and we can see how wrong it is that it is OPs daughter who has had to move. Victim blaming is rife, especially when the victim is a girl or a woman.
OP, i am so sad for your daughter. I hope she settles well in her new school and enjoys the rest of her academic career.

As a governor, do you think the right help is being supplied, at the right time? I'm not point scoring because I'm genuinely interested. In my LA nothing is done till a child is 2 years behind, by which time they can't catch up in mainstream and they're then shipped out of area to any private facility that'll take them. 6% of their education budget goes on home to school transport and those places are expensive.

Do you think there's a case for pre-entry testing and then directing each child to the most appropriate school? You'd need an up front cash injection to make it possible, but I believe it'd pay for itself in financial and emotional terms.

My experience from the parents viewpoint is that a lot of those describing themselves as experts are no such thing. Many years ago now, I got the devil in me and went round a group of LA and school staff who were discussing my daughter (some of whom had never met her) and asked them what qualifications they had in autism. Not one of them had ever studied it and their preconceptions were as dangerous as they were entertaining. I was the only one who had formally studied it, and I was universally ignored.

Which has got nothing to di with a four year old boy
I have every sympathy with your situation but your not doing your self any favours constantly comparing a very small child yo a violent abusive man
It's the school you should be angry with they have let both children down and have failed to keep your daughter safe

My autistic son was violent at age 4. Several years later he isn’t violent at all and is a lovely little boy.
So no this boy isn’t definitely going to grow into a stronger and bigger violent man.
but that’s besides the point, the issue is what’s happening your DD here and now, and her useless school.

Of course they wouldn’t. Don’t be ridiculous.

Exactly. Can't believe that people have written off a 4 year old.

As i understand it, he doesn't have a funded 1 to 1, the class TA has been allocated as his 1 to 1 as a temporary stop gap - which then takes away support from the class as a whole.

It is variable I agree

"Im angry at the fact that he could possibly link 'if I bully and pick on and attack these kids, they will leave.' What sort of a message does that send to a violent boy?"

I thinking you putting the thoughts of someone much older onto a 4 year old.

No I definitely don't think the right help is available when it's needed. There are lots of specialists, and schools trying their absolute hardest to support children, but the system is overwhelmed, and there is no more money available.

Pre entry testing would be a huge undertaking, and would only work if suitable school options were then available - that, and the ethos of 'inclusion' (even when not appropriate) are the biggest issues. Together with (and i know this will be controversial) parental choice - As we have an ARP many children with SEN but without an EHCP applied thinking they would get into the ARP, despite being told needed an EHCP to attend the ARP. The school told the LA they couldn't meet the need of many children with reception places, but as there was nowhere else for them to go, they had to take them.

In that case, the simpler explanation of an inept SLT fits.

It is this that makes me so angry …

I think most people assume safeguarding is the priority until they have a personal experience of the utter insanity of how ‘inclusion’ is interpreted in some educational settings. Because safeguarding most definitely is not. In reality, the bit never said out loud is we are expected to silently tolerate our children being harmed and hurt because of another’s needs.

In our school, an autistic boy with ADHD and ODD diagnoses, had a devastating impact. A teacher had her nose broken when he whacked her with a chair; another was violently assaulted by him in public. It disrupted education in one class for over a year. Children were attacked, and those who weren’t attacked were terrified. Kids started to refuse to come to school.

There is a peculiar insanity that says ‘inclusion’ is so critical that conditions which cause teachers to leave their jobs, other children to become too scared to go to school, education to be disrupted must all be tolerated. I would like those in charge of this insanity to be charged with exposing children to harm, and staff to unsafe working conditions.

Also insane that inclusion doesn’t extend to victims - most affected include other autistic kids who can’t recognise another’s meltdown about to occur and get to safety, kids with dyslexia etc who need extra help in class, kids who are triggered by violence. The spillover consequences are immense.

About 37% of the enrolment are kids with additional needs. The vast majority of these are also victims of a tiny number among them who have extreme needs. But let’s pretend this is exclusively neurotypical vs neurodiverse.

God help you if you speak up for all the many other children, and the staff - this means you are anti-inclusion and intolerant of disabilities.

Unless there is a serious reality check about the tiny number of children who should not be included in mainstream schooling without extensive expensive support because of their damaging traumatising behaviour, there will be a public backlash against inclusion which will extend to ALL kids with additional needs, and that is fucking unfair.

The inconvenient fact is no right-minded parent will EVER offer their child’s mental health, physical health, and education so that another vulnerable child can practice on them while they learn how to function in society. Those who have an extreme belief in inclusion might deeply wish parents would sacrifice their kids in the name of this ideal, but it won’t happen. Not even if you call us names and shriek about how cruel and unkind we are about disabilities. Pause for a moment, and just think about what you’re asking. And if you still think that’s a reasonable request, fuck off.

But we are led by donkeys who are supported by people too blinded by ill thought-out populist unicorn policies to see the wood for the trees. Just wait until Farage gets a whiff of this. It’s so bloody predictable it makes me want to cry.

That sounds about right to me. I don't think the school has any other option right now, though it would've been more helpful if it was actually stopping him from hurting other children.

You see, I don't know anyone who wants their child with significant SEND in mainstream schools as inclusion is very rare. It's been a disaster for a very long time. It was a silly ideological idea (David Blunkett?) and closure of loads of specialist provision has been a disaster. Specialist schools are often very picky which children they'll take, that was a real eye opener actually.

So many children who would've coped in mainstream many years ago just can't manage nowadays.

This.
I’ve met many parents of SEND children. All of those with extremely challenging children want them in special schools. Many of them have had to really fight for it.

The child at our school was academically competent and, in his parents opinion, would have had his education and potential compromised if he was moved to a ‘special school’. I think they were probably right. But I do also truely think he was capable of very very badly harming others. Killing someone, even.

It's very area dependant too. In my area, we have 3 local special schools and all require a diagnosis of global developmental delay which obviously doesn't apply to all children with SEND who may not be able to cope in mainstream.

My son is in mainstream but with significant support that took months to put in place and fighting with the LA. He doesn't have GDD and wouldn't have any chance at all of any of the local special schools so I feel incredibly grateful that the support he has in place works for him because I dread to think what the alternative would've been and how long I would've had to fight for it.

The LA should be explaining that there are special schools that cater for more academic children. And finding a suitable one for the child. Special school does not mean the children are incapable to achieve GCSEs/equivalent. But of course, it's no surprise the LA shirks their duty yet again if it means they don't have to pay for it. Fuck the child, their families and their classmates hey

inclusion in schools is not a bad thing but it is basically impossible without a total rethink of school facilities, buildings, staffing levels, curriculum, progression and assessment. Schools are inherently stressful environments for loads of kids because schools and schooling are designed for hypothetical pupils without much room to adapt the design for the pupils you actually have. All the SEND support is effectively tinkering round the edges rather than creating an actually inclusive learning environment where kids can thrive.

My high achieving, autistic boy is in mainstream. Class of 32, multiple competing SEN in his class. Excellent class teacher and TA but:

Bobby has sensory issues and can’t focus if people are noisy and fidgeting. He wears headphones when he can but he needs to hear the teacher
David thinks out loud and talks constantly because that’s how he processes his thoughts. He can’t show his attainment easily on paper but he’s bright and easily frustrated. When he’s frustrated he throws things and shouts
Mary has sensory processing needs and fidgets constantly.
Jane constantly taps her pen on the table as a stimming action and gets really upset if she can’t
Oliver has very strong adherence to rules and gets very upset when people speak out of turn, are unkind or speak without putting their hand up
James has limited impulse control and speaks without putting his hand up and often jumps up and shouts his answer. He has no sense of personal space. He can’t cope with being wrong
Adam is trying to get in with the cool kids by being the class clown. He struggles with school work and can’t focus so messes about. He is often in trouble. He is mean to kids who do well at school work.
Laura is struggling with trauma after her mum died due to domestic violence. School is her safe place and loud noises terrify.

All trapped in a room together. Schools and schooling aren’t fit for purpose

Absolutely this. And the demanding curriculum doesn't help either. What happened to free play on a Thursday afternoon or just going out for a walk. Kids are learning stuff aged 10 that was taught at aged 12 years ago. And all the homework in primary and the organisational demands. Children can't keep up with it all. And why do they need to learn all this grammar when they're 7?

The specialist school in the campus where I worked many years ago will now only accept children who are non-verbal. Other children who would benefit from a specialist setting are forced into mainstream.

That is true in my area too. There seems to be many more children with very complex needs than 10/15 years ago. So now those with fairly complex needs are pushed into mainstream. I'm not sure why this is, it's not due to greater diagnosis as these children would never have been 'missed'. We used to have a school for children with complex learning and physical needs. And a school for children with predominantly physical/medical/sensory needs but a learning ability broadly within normal range - which is what many children need now but end up in mainstream as both schools are now needed for very complex children and are full with wait lists despite both also doubling intake. Places at these schools cost between 50 and 70k. A child can be put into mainstream with a 1 to 1 for about 25k, so it's a cheaper option, but usually not better

This is the trouble we're having trying to get my son into our preferred specialist.

His primary need is social, communication and interaction, he has a significant, significant spech delay, he's not conversant, there's no back and forth, but he can now say a lot of words, and can say really long sentences, even though most of it is just echolalia and idiosyncratic speech.

He does have a really good understanding of words, but his communication deficits have kept him in Reception, for 3 years. The school have said that's a new record for them, and they've been under pressure from the LA to move him into a Y1 class where he just isn't able to cope, meanwhile, we wait for a specialist to be named.

Consultations have come back from mainstreams with hubs saying his needs are far too great for them to meet, one full specialist provision for SCI need have said that they don't have the resources he would need and benefit from as they're such a small school, and the much larger, much better, well established SCI specialist school have changed their policy this year to only accepting non verbal students and they've decided that my son is verbal because he can formulate words even if he isn't using them in a way that makes sense to anybody that doesn't have an intimate knowledge of him.

Nobody out of our house would know what he's asking for when he says pinkings, or that when he asks are you hungry, he's actually saying that he is hungry, or that you could ask him any yes/no question and he won't actually know what it is you're asking, but he'll know that it needs either a yes or a no, which means he can't safely consent to anything. He can't always tell the difference between can I wipe your bum please and do you want pasta for dinner, he'd just know that he's expected to spit out yes or no, and that answer could change if the same question is asked seconds apart.

So he's stuck in mainstream until a specialist can be named. It's infuriating.

Thanks for answering. My LA just says there aren't places for them and they end up with a tutor for a few hours a week. Would you agree that it's got to start by building the right schools and training staff? And accepting that not every teacher is a teacher of SEN. It takes a special mindset and dedication because it's a bit like lion taming imho. I'll also stick my neck out and say that parents of SEND children are overwhelmingly brilliant because they're sailing into unknown waters and learning new skills and fighting every step of the way.

That's what happened when we were waiting for my son's EHCP to come through. The LA decided that 1 hour of home tutoring a day was a good alternative.