Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

This is why some children need 1:1's or in some cases, even 2:1's. But they take time to put in place.

The LA wouldn't be legally allowed to force a disabled child to stay at home with no education. Isolation is definitely an option, it will depend on staffing and how quickly the school can either pull staff from somewhere else if available or gather funding to get a new member or members of staff.

Honestly, what LA's need to do is accept that some children aren't suitable for mainstream from the get go and put in place alternative provision instead of setting up disabled children to fail and in some cases, other children getting hurt as a result of it. We would need more alternative school places but it would be money well spent.

Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen.

They sound amazing and it's lovely to hear that you had a good experience. If they can do it why won't other schools though? I know it takes a lot of effort and it's stressful for schools - I'm guessing it depends on the SENCO? Or having the balls and patience to fight LAs?

Many years ago when I tried to find another school for my son I was told by many they didn't want him. One senco said 'don't send him here, we don't want him' and that was a supposedly SEND friendly school! Other people had much nicer stories though.

Yep. Some SENCOs shouldn't be in their job at all.

The SENCO at my son's school is amazing and she definitely goes above and beyond. The school is also connected with a really wonderful Ed Pysch who pulls no punches.

I think it starts from the top too, the attitude of fighting for all children. The headteacher herself has a disability and I think it starts with her and how great she is as well.

But if a disabled autistic adult man assaults a woman in a work place by punching her in the face, would the work place need to 'attempt to meet the employment needs of the disabled employee?'

of course not.

why should school be any different? Yes children aren't adults but these violent boys will grow into adults and when it comes down to it, violence is violence, end of!

Why do you keep comparing children to adults? As you've said, children aren't adults and just because a disabled child is violent, it doesn't mean that they will always be violent. Especially if they receive the correct support which isn't going to happen if they are written off at 4 years old.

You keep comparing a 4 year old to an adult man, we obviously dont treat 4 year old children the same as adult men. The 4 year old boy needs either a competant 1-1 ta or a special school placement, and therapeutic input, not to be written off at the age of 4. What exactly do you want to happen to him?

This is true and I do think there is an unfortunate element to not punishing children these days there was a child at ds school he would play up they gave him ipad time play up again he got to play with the nursery children to "destress" none of these things are a punishment for aggressive behaviour all of the things they enjoy doing then they went to secondary school...and got hit back HARD suddenly bad behaviour is not tolerated suddenly consequences are a thing they didnt cope well it was a huge shock yes I blame the parents the child etc but also the primary school for enabling this behaviour this child still got their breaks treats for 100% attendance rewarded way more than others like it eas an achievement not to punch someone that day they didnt do him any favours he bounced from high school to high school and is now in college still entitled still a bully

Wow, this makes me happy. I think that too many professionals get hardened by the situation and lose sight of everything and there's a weird kind of groupthink. I guess that OP's daughter is in one of those schools. And yes so many are in the wrong job! That always shocks me and it's something I'll never understand.

The ed psych sounds great! It's so refreshing to hear of positive experiences with the system.

I don’t know you know, the way things are going I wouldn’t be surprised.

All kids (ND or otherwise) need to be taught consequences and responsibility for their actions, but as you’ve seen for yourself OP, and I’m sure we’ve all seen at some point or other - I think these kids not been taught that are soon going to be adults and I’m sure the excuses will keep coming.

Different scenario but to demonstrate what I mean: recently someone from work posted on their socials VERY homophobic, anti abortion, hateful stuff - someone reported back to HR and after much investigation they’ve got away with it by saying it’s their religious belief and their religion is a protected characteristic. Does this mean that someone’s neurodiversity is going to protect them from lashing out at work in the future? I hope not but I wouldn’t be surprised.

It's a shame it's a minority experience. It really is.

Overall, the system is definitely broken and needs to change.

Ironically most prisoners have SEND and this wasn't identified or it was but they weren't given the support they needed. I think over half have a language disorder.

And did your family call your brother a "problem child"?

My brother wasn't a safeguarding risk to other children. There was no reason why he couldn't be included within a mainstream school.

It was a little girl who hit her, who I was told by school had additional needs and 'couldn't help it'. My daughter was the kindest, sweetest child and apparently they thought her good behaviour would rub off on this other child - which indicates that they knew that at least in part the behaviour was a choice made by the other child and not solely caused by her SEN. The girl was moved to the schools specialist support unit (ARP) which had a seperate classroom and play area - where possible children from the ARP would join the mainstream classes for some lessons, but I made it very clear that this should be the other year 2 class.

The 'tell a teacher' cannot always be relied on. We only found out the extent of how much our DD was being hurt when I found a keyring in her bookbag and asked her where it had come from. Her response 'my friend gave it to me to cheer me up after X smashed my head into the table'. She had fallen for the line 'X can't help it' and therefore felt she shouldn't moan about it.

What also struck me from your post were that the negative behaviors of this child on entering school were also not responded to by the parents.

Thank you for your kind wishes. She will never be the same child, she is now much more feisty, quicker to anger. But she takes less sh*t from others now, so maybe that's a positive?

Because I would have thought ir was pretty obvious that we don't treat four year old children the same as adults ?

Don't children deserve more protection from violence than adults - especially when they're forced to be outside of their family unit and under the care of others?

Isolating a young child often causes future MH difficulties as they are very aware they're failing and viewed negatively (ie as a problem child) and this is how they will view themselves too. They know they're different to their peers. Behaviour is communication and needs clearly aren't being met. Once needs are met it's amazing to see the transformation. The school needs to do much more to meet needs and protect both children. It's not even sacrificing one over the other, it's failing both children badly.

You can't just make things up and the decide that's what needs to happen
Again there are processes to followed.

And you can shout and scream that this boy needs to be removed but it's not up you and other posters on here.

i know, im aware but it would be morally the correct thing to do for the safety of the other children left in that class.

And even then the provision is often pointless as LAs try to give as little (if any) funding as possible. Maybe a few hours a week. If a school puts in 1:1 first then they can often get that in the EHCP though but correct me if I'm wrong.

The benchmark for an EHC assessment is very low but schools have to jump through hoops and even then their first application is often rejected. It's usually quicker if parents apply but that's another nightmare - refusal to assess followed by a rubbish EHCP followed by an appeal which takes a lot of work and that's not accessible to everyone. All the tactics that parents and schools face are a nightmare. You've got to live it to believe it, it's like a horror story.

Maybe some LAs are much less adversarial though.

I’ll bet you anything that once the OP’s daughter is moved, this boy will move on to someone else to bully.

It's just not helpful to refer to a 4 year old as 'an abuser'. I have every sympathy for you and your daughter, but you can advocate for her and the other childrens safety without trying to compare a very small child, especially one with sen, (who could for all we know be suffering abuse/neglect at home), with an adult violent man.

It's better to isolate child on a temporary basis and risk future MH issues of one child m than let the child be in a class to abuse, attack and assault other children, risking the mental health of multiple children in the class. Surely that's obvious?