Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

It IS terrible. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. It's just not appropriate to demonise children who have delays and are probably very distressed (which this behaviour indicates). The school & LA should be doing something for both children. When my ds 'targeted' another child their parent and I joined forces and complained together as that was the only way sadly. But I understand that that's not always possible. School hadn't even told me, I found out from a very angry parent and it really was devastating. It's such broken system and a terrible situation for everyone.

It's not delayed to wipe faeces on another child. You know that.

I don't think there's any point demonising anyone but that kid shouldn't be in a mainstream school.

I don't think the premeditation and vindictiveness of this behaviour indicates delays.

I don't think many people would disagree that the child likely doesn't belong in mainstream school. Unfortunately, it takes far too much time for children who need alternative provision to actually get it and in the meantime, children are let down all over the place.

Ive been on both sides of this.

Both of my children have SEN needs, both very different but very complex.

Child 1, in a SEN class was being picked on by another child, this led to physical attacks. I was told they would be kept apart. Then I found out my child and the other child had been in a small room together, unsupervised and the child strangled my child. The worst part was she was not believed by the school because the child said they didn't strangled her and my children didn't argue back to the teachers about it. I was livid. It took 3 days of me raising merry hell for them to investigated and for them to agree yes that did happen. The school trauma my child still has to this day from that school effects her all the time, in a totally different school.

My other child diagnosed with ASD has previously had very reactive and aggressive behaviour aimed at themselves, teachers and other students. I think what OP is trying to get across with the mums behaviour/parenting is that she's not even trying to redirect the child or do anything. When there was an incident with my child hurting another child, I ALWAYS asked the school to apologise profusely from me to the parent and child and always was concerned about the other child. I kept my child off school so that the school had time to put things in place to protect the other child. Me and school knew he needed specialist education setting but there was a lot of waiting for that but in the meantime I worked with the school. I cared about the effect my child was having on others. Yes my child has SEN, however that doesn't mean that other children should suffer and not be safeguarded.

Document everything in writing.

I wish your daughter nothing but a great school experience at her new school, and a massive well done to you for being so protective and active in getting the best for her. One thing my child 1 still says to me and her school about her school trauma is "They didn't believe me, but my mum did and she stood up for me".

It is completely insane that the children who will be supporting society in the future come last in this equation. Irrational and unfair. I don't really understand why it is accepted (indeed questioning it is considered the mark of a total monster a lot of the time). That boy shouldn't be tormenting classmates until he gets the support he "needs". He should be out and at home immediately and then put somewhere appropriate.

Absolutely, that's the point I'm making, it's the system that is failing both children. Because of the drive for inclusion lots of specialist provision closed down, schools and LAs are under funded. IME schools can't/don't want to fund 1:1 (& if it is funded via an EHCP that is a huge battle in itself to get they don't get the full amount). The whole system is acrimonious between schools and LAs, parents and schools and parents and LAs. The only options for parents seem to be to kick up a huge fuss - which doesn't always work - or try to move schools. It's a huge and very sad mess.

I think it's self inflicted. Local authorities should be lobbying government for a change in the law so they no longer have to meet bottomless SEN requirements.

Seriously !So you don’t think any tormenting happens in schools, that kids don’t lash out, do things they shouldn’t and make mistakes?
If every kid was out at home immediately and then sent somewhere “appropriate” for the above there would be half empty classrooms.

Appropriate where'?
You may not like it ,but all children are entitled to an education, including violent and disruptive disabled children, I agree he shouldn't be exhibiting this behaviour and things need to be put in place to protect all children but the process is long and arduous and its very simplistic to say he should just stay home.

Or, alternatively, Local Authorities should stop pushing cases to tribunal that they can't win and actually have schools for all children close enough that they're not spending 6% of the education budget on transport like my beloved LA is (you may wish to imagine me using another word)

They could take a good hard look at what children need and when they need it rather than again with my LA, requiring a child to be 2 years behind before they will act to help them. They've failed their SEND inspection 3 times and OFSTED aren't impressed by their standard education either.

We all think there's help there until you need it and find weaponised bureaucracy.

You are talking about a four year old!!!

He only started school what....6 weeks ago? It's very possible that with the right support and in the right setting, his behaviour will change.

Schools have to follow the law and turfing a child out after 6 weeks and leaving them with no education isn't following the law.

Some disabled children do smear faeces ,we have no idea of the cognitive ability of this child my 15 year old will wipe his hands and nose on me .

He’s a 4 year old with SEND!! Since when is it ok to write off and label struggling children.

Nobody is suggesting it is but SEND provision varies massively across the UK and finding an appropriate setting can take time.

All these posters saying this child doesnt know smearing his feces on people is wrong: there’s no suggestion, is there, that he’s smearing feces on other people?
Not on other children?
On teachers?
On random walls?
Not, in fact, on anyone other than this rather timid girl to whom he’s already shown dislike?
He knows it’s distressing & humiliating. That’s why he does it to someone vulnerable who he does not like, and only to that person.
A fact which seems to me to militate strongly against autism. This is because I have never known any autistic child or adult be selectively spiteful, in aiming creatively humiliating behaviour at specific, disliked individuals.
In my experience a child with severe autism may be highly disruptive if triggered, to anyone in his environment; and one with a milder condition may be very vulnerable & exhibit ‘odd’ behaviour. But spite, malice, humiliation aimed at one individual? No.

They are both four you seem to be forgetting that it's ridiculous to compare a four year old with a prisoner in HMP Wakefield
The school is failing in its duty to safeguard BOTH children.

Maybe the ‘autistic’ bit needs to be removed from the thread title then? If everyone is in agreement that it’s not actually relevant?

Well we only have limited information from the Op who is understandably only concerned about her daughter, she isn't however in the class room all day so we don't know how he behaves with other children.

Oh no I completely agree it is a spectrum- my children are all different levels of the spectrum my youngest is non verbal, a smearer (although not on people- if we aren’t quick enough he’ll redecorate the room with it in minutes…. Seconds), he also was aggressive at nursery the first couple of months of being there not to one child but anyone who was loud/ screaming/ crying as he couldn’t cope, but eventually with the right support and patience he’s now the most affectionate child, and with visual aides and trying everything we/they could possibly think of he now comforts those that are upset instead of lashing out. I’m saying I’ve been and I am still both the parent of the child being bullied by another SEN child and the parent of a child who would lash out.
they all behave and react differently.

the parent who’s son is bullying my daughter would go out of his way to pick on, hit her just by seeing her step out the front door… like the OP he would make a beeline for my child no one else’s. There was nothing spontaneous about it he just does not like her for no reason at all.

autism or not it’s not an excuse for them to get away with violent behaviour, it’s a reason for it sometimes if you see my first post on this thread I’ve said this there… yes it may take longer to teach them this but we can at least try.

and again I stand by what I said by refusing to tell my daughter the mums excuse for her sons behaviour is that he fancies her, definitely not.

"It is so shit that tiny children like op's daughter are just expected to endure it until the perpetrator is "old enough" for the victim to, what, deserve protection?"

They are the same age so this boy is also a tiny child.

Tribunals are just used delay to save ££. You're right, they completely waste money. And by not supporting children when they need the support they save £10k/year to only end up spending £100k a few years later. Or worse, residential at, what, £300k/year? And it impacts so many other people too - other children like the OP's daughter, teachers, gaslit parents. CAMHS and social care who don't have the resources to pick up the pieces.

Weaponised bureaucracy is the right way to put it plus guerilla warfare.

There's no suggestion because the information OP has about the boy is limited as rightly, her priority is her own child and she obviously isn't going to get complete details about someone else's child.