Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

YANBU - Your poor daughter! That’s shocking. I definitely wouldn’t send my child anywhere she was being treated like that. Hope your meeting went well. 🙏🏻

Yes, but he is much MUCH bigger and stronger than my child, there is an evident power balance. Why doesn't he pick on someone his own since?

violence against woman and girls isn't exempt from school aged children.

The boy might be autistic but that doesnt mean its ok for OPs daughter to be attacked.

If OPs child went to school and said mum was smearing poo on them, hitting her over the head with a water bottle etc, school would rightly call social services and police. The child would likely be removed from the home, whether or not mum is ND. They wouldnt go oh yes the child is being abused but the mums ND so we wont do anything. Why is it different for children?

No one has said that it's ok.

School legally can't turf out a 4 year old 6 weeks after starting school, especially if the behaviour is due to a disability and we can all make assumptions if it is or isn't but the fact is, no one actually knows. Exclusion may happen eventually but school need to provide evidence that everything else has been tried first which takes far longer than just 6 weeks.

No one's saying it's ok though but that it's a failure by the school to support the boy who obviously needs 1:1 support and a failure to safeguard OP's daughter because this isn't being provided.

The TA has been a step in 1:1 for the child for the last few weeks.

it hasn't worked.

Exactly, this child isn't smearing in the way some autistic children do, he's targeting the op's child purposely. That's nothing to do with autism and everything to do with being a nasty bully.

At what point does it get to for an exclusion then without going through the various hoops. Being stabbed? A broken nose? Cracking a kids head open?

surely there is a baseline requirement that if serious harm comes to a child, regardless of how long they've been there, the child should be permanently excluded?

if an adult autistic person assaulted someone in the street they'd be arrested and charged accordingly. They wouldn't have to wait for weeks, months and years worth of 'processes' so I don't understand why it's any different.
yes children aren't adults but children turn into adults and if these kids are seeing to get away with assaulting and harming other children what message does that send, firstly to the perpetrator but secondly, to the victims, especially women and girls. That they should just put up and shut up due to the ridiculous 'processes and hoops?'

Exactly this. But if his actions are still deemed to be bullying it looks like exclusion still won't happen as they'll mark is down to his SEN.

which is harming children and not aiding the violence against woman and girls epidemic. Which is now starting in schools. It's so sad.

Who is saying it is?

But children need teaching about many things when they start school and some disadvantaged children haven’t had as equal a start in life to others for a variety of reasons.

Schools do amazing jobs at turning round all sorts of children. It’s incredible seeing how much some very challenging reception children have been turned round by KS2.

Schools don’t chuck out struggling children for good reason. A 121,time outs and a robust system in place to support him could very easily sort him out the same as it has for many other children.I’ve seen it happen time and time again.

Just to say your child will frequently come across challenging children and it’s highly likely the sister school has exactly the same behaviour policies in place as the school you’re at so you may want to look further afield if you’re not happy with what they have in place.

When the school has evidence that they have tried everything possible and if his behaviour hasn't shown any improvement. A school can't discriminate against a disabled child who has the same legal right to an education.

You've answered your own question. Children aren't adults and all children have a legal right to an education which still applies when a child is violent.

This is a very good point. @HollandAndCooperit may be wise to look at some other schools locally. I’m not sure I would have faith in the senior leadership team if they have the same policies and the current school .
I wish you and your DD well.
On the other hand, I hope the boy has an assessment for SEN and work done on his behaviour. Social Services need to look at his home situation too. It is very worrying that this behaviour will continue and he will become more dangerous as he grows and gets stronger. His life chances will be impacted if nothing is done now.

@Shad3away

" A 121,time outs and a robust system in place to support him"

The problem is - unless I've missed something - is that at the moment only a TA is in place to provide 1-to-1. Nothing else has been organised.

Until the system is in place, what should happen? The boy is aiming missiles (sticks) at seemingly random children on the way into school and is targeting the OP's daughter in school.

Presumably, the school affiliated Educational Psychologist needs to be on board in order to organise the system to be used, so the appropriate meetings need to be in place as a matter of urgency.

I admit to being cynical about the usefulness of some Ed Psychs, however. My old school had one which informed the SLT that a school refuser should be allowed to roam the corridors at will. That only stopped after I'd had to report that he was balancing on a balustrade above a sheer drop.

A depute tried to explain that the school had to follow the ed psych's advice. I explained to the depute that if the boy were to have a fatal accident, it wouldn't be the ed psych's image and name that would be all over the front page of the newspapers.

Amazingly, it was then possible to persuade the boy to enter a classroom as part of a very small group.

I would suggest that the only thing that will make the HT of the two schools pull his finger out is if he thinks that he might end up in deep water for failing to run safe premises.

First of all he's not an adult he's a child so he isn't going to be treated as an adult because he's four ,
And even if an autistic adult assaulted someone in the street they wouldn't necessarily be charged and arrested it would depend on their capacity to understand their actions
I appreciate your upset but you are focusing on the wrong thing here you need to focus on the fact that the school have failed miserably yo safe guard your daughter it doesn't matter what you are certain other posters want the boy in question is still entitled to an education its his statutory right ,
Let's hope he gets the right support to access this in a safe way.

Schools also have a duty to safeguard all their pupils. In the short term, this might mean that a violent pupil will have to be educated separately from others, albeit in the same building.

This is awful. Your poor DD. I'd definitely look at moving her further afield if you can because the original school has absolutely failed her (and the boy who was attacking her) and it sounds like they are fairly close in terms of leadership and policy. Yes it's difficult for the school and the boy but that doesn't mean your DD should be the one suffering because of it. You need a school that takes behaviour, and violence, seriously. Maybe this is a good time for a clean break and a school further away? I know it's easier said than done though and finding school places can be tricky - good luck to you and to her. Wishing her all the best and glad she has you in her corner!

It would only ever be a TA doing a 121 and schools manage it by pulling staff all the time. It’s up to the school to provide the monitoring and system. They should have systems in place and a behaviour policy for this type of thing. He won’t be the first or last. Nothing will be done until there is strong evidence that they’ve tried and exhausted all systems and provision. They clearly haven’t.

Well because for obvious ( i would hope).reasons, a four year old child is very different to their own mum instead of coming up eith daft comparisons
People need to direct their anger at the fact both children have been let down by the school.

Of course. They have utterly failed to safeguard OP's child, there's no doubting that.

I imagine they are scrambling to either pull a TA from somewhere else or are trying to get a EHCP in place as fast as possible. Both, hopefully.

OP I'm so sorry, and I think moving your DD before her confidence is damaged any further makes sense. Writing a complaint to explain why you have moved her, to the head teacher and governors, would be sensible so its on file. Focus on the lack of safeguarding despite repeated incidents, and how inappropriate it was to hand you a cardigan covered in another child's faeces.

Then try to build your DD's confidence, this little boy will hopefully be moved to a more appropriate setting or have better support in place, he may never meet your daughter again. But there will be other disruptive children she will have to deal with , so building her resilience would be sensible

EHCPs are supposed to be for the most disabled children. Not for kids who smear others with shit and get away with murder because their parents are useless. They’ll barely be worth the paper they’re written on soon.

"Yes, but he is much MUCH bigger and stronger than my child, there is an evident power balance. Why doesn't he pick on someone his own since?
violence against woman and girls isn't exempt from school aged children."

All four year olds are tiny children. Absolutely this needs to be dealt with but the poster that compared him to an inmate of Wakefield Prison was being ridiculous.

The only child I know of personally that was permanently excluded very young was a girl for behaviour that had caused injuries to staff and other children.

Why have you decided he isn't disabled ?
You have absolutely no idea what his background is or whether his parents let him get away with murder.

My own child has an EHCP, I'm very aware of who they are for.

If the child is autistic, it is very possible that he does need an EHCP. No one knows for sure though because no one knows all of the child's details.

The legal test for an Education Health and Care Needs Assessment is:

• The child has or may have SEN
• It may necessary for Special Educational Provision to be made for them through an Education Health and Care Plan.

If this child has ASD, they meet condition 1. If they are requiring close supervision to keep them or other pupils safe, they meet condition 2.

That doesn't guarantee that they will be assessed as needing a Plan, but they should certainly meet the criteria for being assessed.