Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

I'm pointing out that the moderators have deleted posts because you have complained about them, and for no other reason. You are then using this to claim that you have been proven right, which is utter bs.

As far as references to "damaged" are concerned, this is not a pejorative. I was head of a Behaviour Improvement School in my previous career. Some of our children were on the spectrum, but many were abuse survivors, living in violent and chaotic homes, from fractured families, in care or simply living in a home that was chaotic and unregulated, often due to parental drug/alcohol abuse, or just poverty. Those latter causes come under the umbrella term of "damaged". We saw Reactive Attachment Disorder, Demand Avoidance, PTSD and some kids without a label who were just sad and bewildered. There are a vast number of reasons outside of neuro-diversity why a child may snap and act out. Attributing that to the umbrella term "damage" is not blaming the child, nor is it ablist. Your belief that it is, is your prejudice coming to the fore. I find it interesting that you are so quick to challenge and pass judgement on others, but you don't seem to be able to ask questions of yourself.

Children who act out and behave badly still have to grow up and live, work and socialise in this society. Society isn't going to change for them, which means they have to be given strategies to cope within a framework of unwritten rules that often don't make sense to them. Getting on your high horse, screaming "ablist" at people and in effect, making excuses for socially unacceptable behaviour doesn't help them one bit. I'm not sure whether you think it does, or whether you are just into point-scoring.

How do you know he does have capacity to understand his actions?
You don't none of us do.

It's irrelevant. If he is capable of toileting himself appropriately and deliberately took some poo on his finger to smear on her, he should have been supervised more closely.

If he isn't capable of toileting appropriately, he should have been supervised more closely.

If he is capable of toileting appropriately, had a bit of a whopsie and then decided to clean his finger on her cardigan, he should have been supervised more closely.

4 year olds shouldn't be able to go to the toilet without someone being aware of it and making sure they have clean hands afterwards.

I think it's time to walk away and focus on your dd and you because you have limits too. I'm not criticising you but you have won, my dear friend I haven't met yet. You are in control. Your daughter is safer. Not safe. No one can guarantee that, but you can take her out of the situation and doing that teaches her that she does not deserve that treatment and that lesson will protect her for the rest of her life. I kept fighting when I could have done that. I wish I hadn't.

Those saying the OP is a great mum and has taught her DD a very valuable lesson are 100% correct!

Agreed! As I said previously all 3 of my children are ND. My middle daughter (10) she is autistic and also has adhd… it’s hard going but there’s one thing she’s not and that’s sly. She is continuously bullied by a boy in our street (according to his mum he’s autistic)… it’s a small cul de sac where the children play on the field hits her, throws things at her, calls her names- last year found a frying pan and whacked her round the head with it. My daughter rightly or wrongly hit him back and then the boys mum started screaming and shouting in my face I explained what happened for her she eventually apologised to tell me her own words “she struggles to take criticism about her children” and the reason her son is nasty to my daughter all the time is because they fancy each other!

I had to tell her to stop right there because there is no way I’m telling my daughter the reason a boy is nasty and violent to her is because he fancies her?! Do we really still live in these times

Again it's a huge spectrum just because your children behave in a certain way doesn't mean all autistic children will I'm not making excuses but sometimes autism cam be a reason
It's unhelpful when posters say well my child is autistic and doesn't behave that way.

Agree with you.

People act shocked when a child with a developmental delay behaves developmentally delayed, especially if it doesn't line up with their preconceived expectations.

My mum used to work in supported living and they had to respect people's autonomy, and if they wanted to go out then her job was to help them go out, they weren't prisoners and deserved as close to a normal life as possible, but many of them lacked impulse control and some would smear poo, some would expose their genitals, some would touch themselves. She would obviously curtail this behaviour, but the reason it happens is directly because of their developmental disabilities.

Children are still developing these skills but being developmentally delayed or disordered makes these things harder to grasp and it presents so differently in every child with these conditions.

I'll stick with my point. Woefully ignorant.

Special schools for LD are only 1 type of specialist provision. There are different categories and a child without learning difficulties would not go to a LAN (learning and additional needs in my county but they seem to label them differently in different councils). There is no reason to assume a child in a high COIN or SEMH school is cognitivly impaired for instance. There are even specific schools for high-achieving children with SEN who cannot cope in mainstream (whether they are close enough to access or have space available is a whole other gripe).

I can't diagnose from MN but from the description by OP, but if the behaviour is persistent and more than just having no boundaries from parents, it sounds like a SEMH school would be most suitable. If a child needs more supervision then can be achieved in mainstream, then a specialist school can provide that. Again, drastically smaller class sizes and drastically higher adult:child ratio.

Getting a place in a suitable specialist setting takes years. It's not just "shoving them in the nearest special school" ffs.

It’s also unhelpful when posters say that autistic children can’t be expected to know / understand how to behave. Some can, some can’t. But autism does not inherently equal bad behaviour and it’s important to separate out autistic behaviour and poor behaviour generally - which most children, autistic or not, will display at times.

"Most 4 year olds, NT or ND, other than the most profoundly disabled, are perfectly capable of understanding that deliberately smearing shit on somebody is wrong."

I agree that the vast majority will know it is wrong but they will vary in understanding about how much doing it will upset others.

I'll stick with my point. I have had a child in an 'LD' school. I have had a child in a 'MLD' school. I have been a governor in both Primary and Secondary phase special schools, and I have been a SEN governor in mainstream infant schools. I have two children in Independent special school (what you'd refer to as 'high COIN').

It really doesn't pay to make assumptions about ignorance.

You've just proved my point there.

High COIN means the children are able to meet age-related expectations, but have communication and interaction needs.

Low COIN is for children with communication and interaction needs that struggle to meat age-related expectations.

If you do actually have a child in a high COIN, then you would know that special schools are not just for low cognitive function. Plenty of children who attend special schools are perfectly able and achieve GCSEs (or local equivalent).

So yes, you are woefully ignorant to assume special schools only cater for cognitive learning disabilities.

Absolutely this - my ds has a PDA profile and it's been extremely damaging when people have called him naughty or devious and people say it's your parenting or boundaries. So many people don't want to understand what it's like from the child's (and parents') perspective. I don't get it.

While other children are expected to tolerate being slapped, kicked a smeared with shit.
While those in authority do nothing

Why would I lie? I've made no such assumption about special schools only catering for cognitive learning disability. However, certainly in my LA, one of the largest in England, the LA maintained special schools all cater for learning difficulties. That's why two of my children have an independent special school named in their EHCPs.

Where have I said autistic children can't be expected to know or understand?
I haven't im pointing out it,s a huge spectrum.

I don't think it's fair to expect the victims of a child's behaviour to have the perpetrators feelings at the top of their list of priorities. I wouldn't be teaching my child to put up with that sort of behaviour because the other child might have PDA or whatever, I don't want to teach them they should allow/excuse abuse.

I find it interesting that a lot of people think the answer is a special school. It's as if they think that it would be ok if this child was smearing poo on a child with a learning disability

and...

A cognitively able child with challenging behaviour does not belong in a LD special school.

You have made the assumption that special schools are only for children with learning difficulties, completely ignoring the other 3 categories of special school. (i don't know if all LAs have 4 categories. I know they all do things differently.)

Independent special schools still have a main area of need. Being independent doesn't negate that. Plenty of independent special schools cater for Learning Difficulties. Others may cater for Communication, or SEMH or deaf/blind.

Special school does not mean learning disability.
Independent special school doesn't mean anything!

I'm just not interested. You are splitting hairs. My intention in my post was clear.

Bottom line: This incident occurred because this child, who was already known to have challenging behaviour, was not adequately supervised.

I don't think the child who is targeted should be expected to understand at all! But I don't think it's fair for adults to judge the other child. The failing is with the SEND system and lack of funding and resources.

Assistant Headteacher here - this response captures the lot!

The two most important pieces of advice I could give on this is to ensure you are focussed on your child’s wellbeing, as they won’t be able to discuss the other child with you in any meaningful way.

Also make sure you follow through and hold to account - send a ‘thank you’ email afterwards outlining your expectations of them and deadlines. Stick to your word - if you say you’re progressing to Governors, do it. Keep promoting for replies if you need them, but do get as much in writing, if possible.

As these meetings can be quite emotionally charged, do you have anyone else who could go with you to note-take?

Best of luck and well done for advocating so strongly for your daughter.

Somewhere he can't wipe his bloody shit on people? Would you be ok if this happened to your child?

*prompting for replies

A lot of the guys in HMP Wakefield have no more ability to control themselves than an anti social four year old. There has to come a point at which they are taken out of the lives of innocent people even if it's not their fault they're like that. It is so shit that tiny children like op's daughter are just expected to endure it until the perpetrator is "old enough" for the victim to, what, deserve protection?