Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

My worry with telling her to hit back, would be that she wouldn't do it hard enough or lack confidence or it would perhaps add fuel to the fire.

This is why I would recommend BJJ or even Judo - No hitting. BJJ as well we know it today was designed around a smaller person subduing a larger, stronger opponent.

The confidence will come from training - she'll know what she's capable of because she'll be doing it on the mats every week.

^Yes, this. The boy’s mum might have said that he was autistic, but we don’t know whether he’s had an official diagnosis. It’s unusual for there to be an official diagnosis at this age. It’s also possible that his mum is only saying it to excuse his behaviour, which she’s unable/unwilling to control. We just don’t know.

His treatment of the OP’s DD doesn’t sound at all like it’s being caused by sensory overload, but simply a case of bullying.

Of course, he obviously might be autistic, but even if he is, I don’t believe that it’s the reason for his bullying the OP’s DD, it sounds just plain nasty.

"It’s unusual for there to be an official diagnosis at this age."

It's not unusual.

Yes.

I agree with that also.

I’ve just caught up on your updates from yesterday afternoon OP (not the whole thread) but one thing to consider about the sister school is that they have the same overlord heads head so the policy of this were to ever happen again would be shockingly enabling for the bully.

Not necessarily it depends on how the the autism impacts the child ,my son was diagnosed at three admittedly he is severely autistic .

"A cognitively able child with repeated violent behaviour belongs in a PRU"

It depends upon the reason for the behaviour. A PRU may not be a suitable place for a child who is not coping in mainstream environment because of autism. What is required there is a specialist autism school but there are few of these for children who do not have a significant learning disability.
PRUs are not meant to be long term provision anyway.

My youngest was a tiny child and wanted to
luke everyone. His older brothers taught him to punch. He’s only done it once when he lost his temper with another child who was constantly bullying him on a lowish level. One punch, right in the stomach, with his entire weight behind it. He got a detention for it but the bully left him alone!

im not condoning violence in anyway but sometimes a bit of self defence can help, even if it’s just your confidence.

They are usually only available for older children too. I've never heard of a PRU for 4 year olds.

Your poor little girl. I find it shocking how so many parents are excusing violence in the name of inclusion. Wishing you both the very best with your daughter's new school.

100% agree.

^True, I imagine it would be different with severely autistic children. I was really thinking in terms of the very long waiting lists, which have delayed my DD1 (16) getting an official diagnosis. You would have to start the process very early to have the diagnosis before your child started Reception.

Of course, my experience is with getting a diagnosis for my DD, I know that it’s harder with girls than with boys.

Anyway, it doesn’t change my main points, that we don’t know whether this boy has been officially diagnosed with autism. Or that his behaviour towards the OP’s DD doesn’t sound like it’s because he’s overwhelmed, it sounds like targeted bullying.

You can agree all you want but this is a big issue in some schools
All children are entitled to an education,

The LA can't just exclude a child and not provide an education for him .
I know that's not helpful to the Op though and the school have failed in their duty to keep her daughter safe.

This is so true. My daughter was OP's child in year 2, and when I complained they said 'your DD hasn't mentioned any issues, tell her to come to us if it happens again'. But my daughter became almost paralysed by fear, became a shell of herself, not eating or sleeping. It took her well over a year to return to something like herself, after just 6 weeks of being hit daily by another child and me removing her until the other child was moved. 3 years later, she has never actually fully returned to the child she was before this hapenned, she is now more 'prickly', always on alert, very defensive and non trusting of school staff - and who can blame her, the people meant to protect her, didn't.

That's utterly heartbreaking, I'm so sorry you and your DD went through that. I'm glad that nasty boy was moved.
was he excluded or just moved to a different class? Your poor little girl that is just so sad. Bullies don't realise or care for the impact they are imposing on children.

I hope she is okay now

Not a man or a adult tho is he . He's a disabled infant who's 4 who's unaware he's doing anything wrong so don't compare the incomparable ,,it's up to the adults to provide safeguarding for all ,certain ppl on this thread just want mum to go home and take her' problem child ' with her ,well no sorry , some of you have no idea how hard it is with a disruptive child the sleepless night the constant state of high vigilance all knowing their is no magic pill or button you can press to make your child 'normal' . Their also isn't just a special school place available ,,,Jesus you have to jump through hoopa.for a EHCP al whilst judgemental mums stare at you like your a scummy mum who doesn't parent properly .Some comments on this thread are disgusting . Op it's up to school adults to ensure your child isn't harmed by this other child it's also up to them to make sure BOTH get the education and support the BOTH deserve ,,it's a hard pill to swallow I know but cos you were lucky enough to give birth to a NT child doesn't give you a privilege,,,take it up with the LA like every parent of SEN child does you will find your banging your head on a brick wall tho,,and for that I'm sorry cos believe we all want the same thing for our children to be in a appropriate safe place that meets their needs and educates them ,,it's the system letting them down not other parents and not the children . Believe me I uses to hold similar opinions but one thing having SEN kids taught me was until you've experienced you really don't have a clue how hard or impossible it it is .

There's a bit of a common theme here where boys are bullying the girls. I wonder if it's a power imbalance? I'm not disputing boys get picked on either, no bullying should ever happen. But from all the replies saying their DD got picked on, on this thread, the perpetrator seems to be a boy. Boys will pick on boys, but the young girls being targeted seem to be by boys.

I guess in secondary school it would probably turn to catty girls and arguments. But that's not a patch on assaulting, shit smeering etc that these young girls are going through.

im not making a generalisation by any means. Some little boys go through hell too. Some girls are worse than boys. There's just a bit of a pattern on this thread I'm noticing.

does the violence against women and girls epidemic start at primary school I wonder.

@liamharha
how do you know I gave birth to a NT child? I am ND myself and DD is on the pathway too. So please stop with your generalisation.

there is also no proof that this child's alleged autism is the reason for him targeting my daughter smearing shit on her. It doesn't seem like a meltdown and he's lashing out. It seams that his attacks are premeditated and targeted.

please don't excuse shit behaviour due to ND. It's actually offensive to ND people.

And @liamharhayes they aren't men. Yet. But they will be one day.

as PP said, no children should be around any violence. And that includes violence induced by ND or NT children.

So much has already been said, but I just want to add one thing. Your daughter will feel you have listened to her and really HEARD what has been happening, and acted on it. That will mean her trust in you is valid and has been proven, and will provide a solid foundation for the future.

Well done!

He's a disabled infant who's 4 who's unaware he's doing anything wrong

You are making a lot of assumptions about his level of understanding. A lot of the behaviours appear planned, and OP says he is verbal.

Most 4 year olds, NT or ND, other than the most profoundly disabled, are perfectly capable of understanding that deliberately smearing shit on somebody is wrong.

You are also generalising based on how you and your daughter prssent ,you should realise then if you have met one autistic person you have met one autistic person
I'm not makng excuses but sometimes autism can be a reason
However your daughter shouldn't have to exposed to the behaviour and the school have failed to keep her safe ,that's what you need to be focusing in not whether the boy is hoing to be excluded or not.

You are alro making a lot of assumptions, none of us know whether he is capable of understanding how his behaviour impacts others.

Verbal doesn't necessarily mean he understands his actions and/or isn't developmentally delayed.

The fact is, everyone is making a lot of assumptions about the boy. No one, even OP, actually knows.

@liamharha

a four year old isn’t an infant

and you’re doing this child a huge disservice by making out he hasn’t the capacity to understand that smearing his shit on someone isn’t ok.