Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

100% this.

If this child is this mean on purpose ( I’m a mum to a sen child and this is not impulse he did this on purpose and thought about it ) then surely they need to be watching him like a hawk not after the events happen but to prevent them !

The world doesn't revolve around SEN children. It certainly doesn't revolve around violent shit smearing children.

The problem boy should be isolated from the other children to prevent any further violent assaults until the LEA has organised a suitable solution.

The boy's parents can then decide if they'd prefer him to be isolated at school or kept at home while they wait for the LEA's solution.

Then it’s should be up to the parents if this child to keep him home ? You cannot expect another child to get punished constantly . I’m a mum to a child who lost it at school due to lack of support and for 2 years I had her home all but 3 hours of the day . I could not in good Conscience allow my child to put other in danger because of a school or government failure

It amazes me that when some SEN parents say they would go to the ends of the earth for their kids, it doesn’t occur to them every other parent would as well.

I was told a story by someone once. Their child was being hit every day at school by another "troubled" child. The school did absolutely nothing. So this parent approached the parent of this child and threatened them with legal action and police involvement if their child laid another hand on theirs. The bullying stopped

I'm glad you're moving her.

I would still be pursuing a formal complaint about how it's all been handled to the school's governing body.

Infuriating that people still have to move the victims of bullies instead of the other way around. Been there, done that, and it was awful, so I really feel for OP's daughter.

A safeguarding issue. The OP could make a formal complaint to the school about how they are implementing their behaviour policy, if she wants.

I hope your DD is happy at the new school and makes new friends quickly.

I can't say that I'm surprised at the ablist comments. Certain posters seem to think that their children should be allowed to behave however they feel with no repercussions. It's funny how this boy isn't having meltdowns at lashing out at anyone but is targeting and picking on a small girl who is unlikely to fight back.

The school clearly has not. However, as I stated, in Scotland it would be down to the LA to organise this. I'd be interested to know who should have oversight of this in England.

A child with SEN can be suspended if school can show they have done everything they can to meet need. And especially if the reason for exclusion is not linked to their disability. For example a child with a physical disability as only SEN need could face sanctions for repeated use of foul language, whereas a child with tourette's could not.

There's a difference between excluding a child from education and finding a more appropriate educational setting for a child.

There's also the need (in this case) to protect the physical and mental health of a child who has been both physically and verbally abused.

Unfortunately, it's quite common these days for children to be forced to share an educational environment with someone who has hurt them. Teachers are taught that all behaviour is communication and that challenging behaviour is a trauma response; therefore schools normally bend over backwards to accommodate the needs of pupils exhibiting challenging behaviour. This does not mean that other children should be expected to suffer because of the behaviour of others.

I do think this is being handled appallingly, but I find it interesting that a lot of people think the answer is a special school. It's as if they think that it would be ok if this child was smearing poo on a child with a learning disability...the issue here is one of adequate supervision, whether in mainstream or special school, an alternative provision or elsewhere.

Nobody is insinuating or saying it would be okay if he was smearing poo on a child with a learning disability in a special school 🤦‍♀️

Then the parent gets fined and prosecuted for not sending the child to school.
This happened to me after a long fight finally got my child in a specialist school she's started yr 2 after been on a reduced timetable for 2 years whilst we fought for her to have a education.
The ignorance on this thread regarding SEN is appalling ,it's a massive spectrum some children will be aggressive some won't some will respond to boundaries and discipline some won't .
I have one SEN child in mainstream who is good as gold causes no problems but is extremely vulnerable,I have another who is extremely similar to the little boy OP describes ,these are little human beings and little children NOT monsters or problems to be shut away from polite society.

They definitely do, and then shriek and claim victim hood when anything is suggested that the behaviour isn't acceptable.

Mind you, you'd be surprised how quickly an LA can move when there's a crisis.

Our school was repeatedly told that there was no money available for anything. One day, a particularly 'challenging' 15 yr old punched one of my colleagues in front of several hundred witnesses. The kid's parents tried to have the teacher charged...The evil brute had put out his hand to block a second punch. When the police informed the parents that there was no case to answer, they complained to the LA and then went to the press.

Miraculously, money was found to pay for an assistant for that one pupil. (His 'difficulties' were not associated with a learning disability.)

And @WearyAuldWumman perfectly illustrates the point!!!

You've said something there that's really stuck out to me. That it's common for children to share an environment with someone abusing them.

deep rooted issues usually come from childhood and I wonder if normalising being in forced company with the child harming and abusing the other child could lead to issues down the line with relationships and abuse.

we shouldn't be normalising this. Ever. You've made a really good point there and it reinforces why I'm moving her

Aw your poor daughter my heart breaks for her bless her.
this little boy is clearly not being supervised or if he is it’s not the right setting for him.

I have 3 children all of whom are autistic. My youngest is 3 (non verbal, but over the last couple of weeks he’s attempting to say words yay!!) and when he first started nursery he was aggressive on a few occasions when children were upset as he hated the noise of them crying- I felt awful when his key worker told me my other 2 weren’t like this at all. He’s now settled thank goodness (they still supervise him at all times) and now is so affectionate, kind and comforting he’s like a different child now he’s got the best support.

id never use my children having SEN as an excuse for violence… its a reason yes but not an excuse. I’d be mortified if I was this little boys mum and so apologetic to you and your daughter I hope she’s that sort of parent.

Ex teacher
current SEN parent.

move her.

i’m glad you’ve come to this decision.

i have seen a few times autistic individuals focus on one or two particular other children/students and those children can bear the brunt of violence and problematic behaviour.

this is different from situations where the child is simply dysregulated.

in one situation the autistic child wanted to “marry” them and punished them with violence etc if they spoke to other children.

he was put on 1:1 supervision at all times. It was very difficult for the girl in question.

if the child is focusing on her then you really should move her. He obviously needs support, but these situations are very, very hard to handle from a school point of view and if both children are in the same classroom you have to be constantly alert for any movement/violence which can be very unexpected.

my thoughts are with you and your child and I also hope the boy gets the help he so clearly needs.

Just curious, but why wouldn't you want your DD being used as a deterrent to bullies if she was in year 6 and paired with a younger child? That's quite common in schools and both the younger and older children benefit from it. Also, tbh, it sounds like the school have listened and responded by now ensuring that he is accompanied by a TA. It's pretty common for there to be children with SENs in all schools so you may find the same issues with a different school. The boy probably can't help it and it's hard to say how much the parents are to blame. You could recognise the need for your daughter to be safe whilst also acknowledging that the mother might be doing as much as she can under the circumstances, even if she's parenting a different child with different needs to yours in a different way. If the head described the actions of a 4 year old with SEN as bullying, then I would have concerns.

Agreed, @HollandAndCooper .

I'm neurodivergent myself.* When I was a school pupil, I just wanted to be left in peace to get on with my work.

As I said in a pp, one of my bullies got in touch with me - ostensibly to apologise. (It became clear that she just wanted to make herself feel better. Apparently, the 'seeking forgiveness' was a TikTok fad at one point.)

The result for me - at the grand old age of 65 - was that I nearly missed my school reunion and began to obsess as to whether I should have gone ahead with the plastic surgery that I was offered at the age of 19.

Part of the bullying involved constant name-calling and mocking of my features to the extent that my mother booked a GP appointment for me while I was still at school. I was eventually offered surgery by a maxillofacial specialist, but - fortunately - had to wait two years to allow for any further growth.

By the time I was 21, I had my first serious boyfriend and my confidence had grown enough to allow me to turn down the procedure. However, being contacted by the bully brought back all the angst.

In your place, I would absolutely move my daughter.

*I have a formal diagnosis of OCD. Autism and ADHD is suspected, but there seems no point in seeking a formal diagnosis at my age.

It leads to the bullied child's nervous system defaulting into the freeze response. Essentially making them a victim in other situations for life.

You'll see the outcome of this on here, the ones who want to hush hush victims and protect bullies.

The head did, and highlighted where in the bullying policy this came under.