Autistic child attacking DD part 2

[HollandAndCooper]

Original thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5420774-autistic-child-attacking-dd?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi Everyone,

me back again looking for advice, perhaps some last minute advice as I have a meeting scheduled with the head teacher this morning.

DD aged 4 has been very unwell and spent a week off school. She is really going through it at the moment. She returned to school yesterday after her time off, and I'd hoped that the boy in question would've got bored and moved on. I did have a meeting booked last week but couldn't go due to DD being poorly.

well.. it turns out he hasn't got bored and moved on. It's a very small school with 20-25 per class, one class per year from reception to year 2.

the event that happened yesterday, by DDs account.
it was play time and DD was playing with a couple other girls in the play ground. Child in question was calling DD names like 'baby' and 'you need nappies' and announced he was going to the toilet.
he came back out and proceeded to have faeces on his finger to which he wiped on her cardigan.

a staff member took her to the quiet room, swapped her cardigan for one in lost property and the cardigan was handed to me in a bag on pick up. With still an evident stain on it.

i have a meeting this morning.

I have a copy of the safe guarding policy, anti bullying policy. I just need some wise words from MN now with what I need to say but I'm going down the route of failing to keep my child safe, and this is a huge safeguarding issue, not to mention a biohazard issue.
please be kind, I'm a single parent doing my best, and she won't be returning until she is safe.

so far the child has:
kicked, punched, pinched, clouted her on the head with a metal water bottle, name called and taunted. And now this.

she will not be going back to the school until this is sorted and there are proper sanctions in place. I am so angry and utterly heartbroken for her. She has been so poorly last week and in and out of hospital and I cannot see her broken like this anymore.

i appreciate the old thread is 1000 posts but there's more information on there if needed.
My AIBU is I guess to want this child excluded and put as far away from DD as possible. But I know it's not that simple. I'm at a total loss and they are failing to safe guard my child. She will not be returning until she can be safe, I'm also looking at other provisions for her now.
thanks in advance.

How awful for your daughter OP. If I were the parent of the other child I'd want to know about what was happening. I'd support any actions by school for my child and I'd be fighting to make sure it didn't happen to your child or anyone else's child again.

Yes and his mother is there with him
while he does this, she ignores this and all his other poor behaviour which probably is a strong indication of why the kid thinks it fine to wipe shit on other kids and beat them up.

I was that little girl who got bullied by boys in primary school. My own mother made excuses for them because they had "difficult home lives". It wasn't until my late twenties that I realised I'd gone through life letting people walk all over me, because I'd been taught from a very young age that I was a punchbag. I eventually realised that it didn't matter what problems other people had - they had no right to take them out on me.

OP, good for you in fighting for your daughter. It's not her fault that this boy has autism. She's not collateral damage,

No, they can't, but are you honestly arguing that their not doing so is evidence of a diagnosis?

Exactly, it probably has very little (if anything) to do with his autism diagnosis, it's him being nasty and doing whatever the hell he wants because he knows he can get away with it. I wonder what kind of consequences he got at home for that incident? I'm guessing probably nothing.

I have already responded to another poster about this, but for the avoidance of doubt: the non-disclosure of special needs is not evidence that they exist.

I appreciate the time an EHCP takes. However, leaving a child who is a physical threat to others without supervision isn't acceptable. And obviously due to his SEN he can't be suspended. Therefore, he needs 121 until something more formal is in place.

Your previous comment seemed to be saying that because it wasn't mentioned at the meeting then he doesn't have special needs. I'm sorry if that was incorrect.

Someone said upthread that these incidents as a whole, but in particular this incident, have none of the hallmarks of an autistic child lashing out or having a meltdown because of need not being met. On the contrary, today’s incident, with its malicious planning, seems much, much worse than that- really genuinely spiteful and vindictive, designed to humiliate. If these were meltdowns I think they would be much more forgivable than the repeated targeting and planned bullying of a smaller child.

Agree that the school has been utterly woeful. @HollandAndCooper are the schools’ management team the same across both sites? I might want to speak to the new school about how they would deal with such behaviour and keep your daughter safe, and I really hope the senior leadership team is different at the new school.

No child needs to wipe poo on another child. Smearing in general can be a result of unmet sensory needs, but that doesn’t make you call another child a baby and deliberately wipe poo on them.

Sometimes children with SEND misbehave on purpose. Not everything is because of needs. Just blaming the need for everything and not putting boundaries in place does nobody any favours.

They can’t just magic up a 1:1.
School would need to advertise, interview and employ someone for that 1:1.
Before that they will first need the LA agree to pay the wages of the 1:1.
Schools don’t just have spare staff available to 1:1, existing staff will be very thinly spread already.

Small schools are generally not the best for shy children- it’s much harder for them to find their tribe.
Big schools offer a wider group of potential friends (plus small schools are often overwhelmed by SEN children - their behavioural challenges are not able to be diluted).
I think you are doing the right thing to move her OP, I hope the new school has a kinder group of children.

Then suspend him til they have one

Moving her will be the right decision OP. Are there any other schools slightly further afield that you could look at? My county has a lost of school showing what spaces they have in each year group available.

If he does show up in yr3 there's a chance that he won't have an EHCP in place with a dedicated 1-1. The process takes an age, with appeals dragging it out from the county. And if he doesn't even have a diagnosis yet that could take yonks to get.

If the current school is not keeping her safe it's 100% the right decision to pull her out. I moved my son when he was in yr 4 as ultimately I didn't trust them. The wishy washy meeting shows that. They downplay everything and send you off so you don't bother them.

She'll make new friends, and as the new person everyone will want to introduce themselves and show her around.

This. I feel for both him, your daughter, you, and the little boy's parents. As a parent of a little autistic boy myself, I assure you it is the hardest thing in the world - ot is so heartbreaking to see your child act in this way. Thankfully my son never smeared poop (this is common with some autistic kids by the way). Don't present emotion towards the child. None of this is his fault, and likely not his parents' either (though haven't RTFT so could be wrong). Just focus on your daughter, the harm she is suffering, and ask what will be put in place to ensure that she is safe. Hopefully, this will prompt the school to put something in place for the little boy, such as closer supervision. The issue of course is where the money comes from. An EHCP takes a LONG time to get and is notoriously difficult to secure, especially at so young an age. The school may well be desperate to put some 1:1 in place for this little boy but not be able to afford it unless the LA pay. However, this isn't really your concern - your priority is keeping your daughter safe. Good luck. These threads make me so sad because if my boy didn't have an EHCP and such amazing support from his school, this thread could have been about him.

I remember your original post, just heart breaking. Your poor little girl. It’s very sad the school has been useless but you really are doing the right thing by moving her. You have been a great advocate for her and she is lucky to have you as her mummy! Hopefully she will be much happier at the new school.

Thank you , I hope so too.

I've got a week or two off with her now (and half term) which is quite handy as I'm literally in the middle of changing jobs, so I've booked a little log cabin down in Cornwall for just the 2 of us, to just get away and get some sea air. it's so needed. ❤️ it's the least she deserves. I just want her to know I'm on her side and I'll fight her corner, even if there's only one of me!

You seem to be well informed.
I too have heard of poop smearing for autistic kids but have only heard smearing it on themselves or walls/surfaces. Is it actually common for children with autism to smear it on other children?

What you’re suggesting is an illegal exclusion.

You can’t just suspend an SEN child while you wait for 1:1 support to arrive.

In a mainstream school, 1:1 support for long periods of the day can only be provided with an EHCP. There is a deadline of 20 weeks for the LA to produce an EHCP and although this is a legally binding deadline, most authorities don’t meet it in time. A large number of SEN parents end up taking the LA to SEN tribunal to get EHCP support in place.

Most people are misinformed on how SEN support is implemented unfortunately.

@DiaryOfaTTCer what do they call it when schools refuse to keep pupils safe and they get physically injured?

The poo smearing that's common in autistic children is usually sensory though isn't it? Not a premeditated act to humiliate and bully another child?

Ok well then they should permanently exclude him for dangerous behaviour, that's not illegal.

No, you didn't. But you don't need to as we can all see it was a strawman.

A child can have sen needs but also be a bully with premeditated behaviour.

I find that sen can be (not always) used as an excuse not to have to do anything about the behaviour.

While I agree with the PPs saying that schools can’t magic up 1:1s, it is for the school to keep everyone safe. Relying on an EHCP would take way too long. In my borough, they don’t even fund the first 5 months of an EHCP. The earliest a reception child would ever even get an application for an EHCP is around Feb because you need to evidence enough cycles of Assess-Plan-Do-Review. However, schools do have a nominal SEN budget of £6000 per child they are meant to use. There are also other sources of funding like SENIF if he went to nursery. Agencies can be used as a stop gap while recruitment happens.

It may be that the child doesn’t need 1:1 all day, just at certain trigger points. Things we’ve had to do to make up gaps are:

• Reallocating TAs from older years.
• Hiring an extra dinner lady so a TA can do 1:1 with a child at lunchtime instead of a lunch duty.
• Offering a reduced timetable to pupils who are struggling to adjust.
• Making the Reception TA a 1:1 on a temporary basis (extremely suboptimal.)
• Liaising with the local special school on strategies that might work.

At the end of the day you sometimes have to choose between the quality of education you provide to all and ensuring the safety of pupils. Safeguarding has to come before anything. It ain’t pretty but it’s the case.

OP, the school will be seriously sweating now you’ve pulled her out as well because they’ll need to explain the long absence to the LA.