AIBU to ask you what a "neurotypical" person is like?

[SplishSplash123]

I am a bit intrigued as to whether it's reasonable to think that NT people are put on a bit of a pedestal at times and assumed to have none of the issues that ND people have, when in reality I think most of us (NT and ND) have areas of strength and weakness and it's perfectly possible for someone to be NT and procrastinate/be forgetful/struggle with time blindness etc.

This comes from a debate with a friend recently where she said a parking fine should be voided if someone has ADHD because they have a reasonable excuse. She didn't accept my argument that it would then be just as valid for someone without ADHD, who might generally be forgetful, or who was simply having a very stressful day, to have also had a reasonable excuse.

I also see this in work sometimes, where people without reasonable adjustment passports are told to "get on" with things they struggle with (e.g. having to spend more time answering the phones to cover for colleagues who have had this part of their job taken away from them) without any understanding that this can be stressful and draining for some NT people too.

To be clear, I'm not saying people with ND don't have any right to reasonable adjustments/reasonable excuses etc (I believe they absolutely do!) but to want to acknowledge that we can all struggle with things at times and need a bit of understanding/support.

Of course we all struggle with different things sometimes, but my understanding is that to get a diagnosis of something like ADHD one has to show that it is significantly impacting one's life. So it isn't the same thing as just being forgetful.

I think it’s to do with the degree.

The issues with my DS are quite something else.

He is classed as highly vulnerable - you would have to live it to understand. It’s not a bit of forgetfulness it’s every day having to carry the responsibility for him. In essence it’s having an adult child with the life skills of a 10 / 11 year old.

well your friend is being silly. If someone has ADHD and, as a consenting and functioning adult has gone and got a car and driven it, they need to be responsible for it, set alarms if they are forgetful, etc.

But for neurodiversity to be neurodiversity and not just a personality quirk it needs to be a clinical / not normal degree. So that’s your answer basically. But we still need to follow the same rules (ie: the law) that the neurotypicals do!

Those of us who have ADHD refer to "ADHD tax" and this would include a parking fine because you either forgot to buy a ticket, forgot how much time you'd put on the car or (this didn't happen to me, I swear ....) forgot you'd taken the car and walked home ...

It also includes having to pay for the stuff you ordered, meaning to send back (multiple sizes etc) but forgot to do it on time. I've never met anyone with ADHD who tried to use it to get out of paying a parking fine.

It's true NT struggle with things from time to time (so I've heard, I don't think I know many NT people anymore) but neurodivergent people struggle with them ALL OF THE TIME. And they are exaggerated by anxiety. I have misophonia, which is annoying at best. Right now I am in a highly anxious state and can't even stand the sound of my own eating in some foods. We all have quirks but the difference between neurodivergent people and neurotypical people is impairment.

Your friend's position on parking tickets is, IMO, ridiculous. It would boil down to free parking for all those people with an ADHD diagnosis which is not necessary, fair or workable.

I am with Suzanne O'Sullivan on this stuff - her book The Age of Diagnosis talks about things this area in chapter 5 "ADHD, depression and neurodiversity". There's too much to summarise here unfortunately.

The irony being that "getting lots of parking tickets" would count towards "significant impact" in an ADHD assessment.

@SplishSplash123 - the difference, largely-speaking, lies in "can be a bit forgetful when it comes to parking time limits" versus "pathologically unable to focus on the time limit as well as the shopping which needs to be done while navigating the inevitable side-quests that are no longer optional".

This happens to my ADHD other half all the time when out alone, but never happens when we're out together - I'm autistic, so I often have the opposite problem; I need to go out, get the job done and get home. I'll have a set schedule in my head, I know which order of shops is most efficient, I know exactly how long each shop should take (plus a couple of minutes for the unpredictability of other people), and therefore I know exactly how long we need for parking.

By way of compromise, I usually add 30-60 minutes for ADHD-related side quests when asked to plan these things (I've become the planner by default), because I'm not a controlling monster ;)

Excellent post, thank you.

In order to reach a doagnosis, you need to have a pattern of behaviour that is significantly detrimental
in more than one area of your life, and it needs to be demonstrated over a long period of time.
so yes, NT people can have “forgetful” days or procrastinate from time to time
those with ADHD will have to battle with this every single day. Not just the off days.

I have ADHD and had such severe anxiety over my parking ticket!

I tried to dispute the dam thing as there was no sign. I kept getting computer says no type responses.

Also, the website was highly confusing as it said we will write to you with a response. Seeing as they sent me the original fine by letter, I duly waited for a letter in the post. No, it went to junk mail, so I missed the timing to pay the cheaper fine.

They were having none of it. I even wrote to the council to complain about their website because I think it's confusing for a neurodivergent person.

In the end I paid the bloody fine.

My thoughts are on this - yes an NT person might forget to take the rubbish out, but an ND person might forget so much until there are maggots and flies, not just once but on several occasions. This is the kind of level of significant impact.

Ditto bed linen, washing hair, laundry etc.

I think you're demonstrating the point I've made here - you're saying NT people only have such issues occasionally, but you also say that a diagnosis requires significant detriment "in more than one area of your life". Why is it not the case that a NT person could have a daily struggle with something like forgetfulness or procrastination, but not necessarily hit other markers that would lead to a diagnosis of ND?

Your post is a good example of what I think is the problem - that a NT person's problem can be minimised because they don't have any ND diagnosis.

I completely agree with you OP. NT people suffer from these things all the time. It was explained to me recently that it’s three things, the severity, frequency and impact of these traits that set apart a ND person from a NT. That really helped me to understand it. Your friend is being ridiculous on the parking ticket point.

I didn’t think there were many NT people left these days 🤷

I can see your friends point but it would never work for the reasons you listed. Everyone has a reason why they got a parking fine. ND can be one reason, NT people have reasons too. The ADHD tax does suck though, I have ADHD and ASD and I’m awful at managing money. I’m constantly in my overdraft for many of the issues mentioned above like parking tickets, forgetting to return clothes, impulse spending and shopping, forgetting to cancel subscriptions (after impulse getting them). Luckily DH manages our money so it’s only my overdraft affected and we have joint savings etc but when I lived alone it was not good.

I also see this in work sometimes, where people without reasonable adjustment passports are told to "get on" with things they struggle with (e.g. having to spend more time answering the phones to cover for colleagues who have had this part of their job taken away from them) without any understanding that this can be stressful and draining for some NT people too.

This is simply because the law recognises that a clinically diagnosed person can’t just push through disfunction and sensory overload.

Interesting post, OP.

As someone who used to work in software testing and had to think up test cases for various computer programs, I wonder if anyone with appropriate medical qualifications know if it is possible to get a medical diagnosis as NT?

Something along the lines of Terry Pratchett's Discworld character Nobby Nobbs who "carries a certificate signed by the Patrician to (almost) prove that he's a human being. The certificate reads: I, after hearing evidence from a number of experts, including Mrs. Slipdry the midwife, certify that the balance of probability is that the bearer of this document, C.W.St John Nobbs, is a human being. Signed, Lord Vetinari."

Asking for a friend.

This is helpful thanks. I remember a thread where someone said they were diagnosed as neurodivergent, but then said that it "didn't affect their life very much". I really didn't understand this, did they just get a wrong diagnosis?

But should anyone have to push through dysfunction and sensory overload?!

Not really. Both the ADHD and autism diagnostic criteria require specific clinical thresholds in multiple specific areas, and specify that the behaviours not have any other explanation.

I must admit that I'm not as familiar with the ADHD criteria as I am with the autism criteria, but the methodology is similar. For example, somebody might have obsessive repetitive behaviours which became present in adulthood, but that alone would not be sufficient for an autism diagnosis - there would have to be social deficits and/or lack of reciprocity too, and these must all cause clinically-significant difficulty in important areas of life, and they must all have been present from very early developmental periods but must not be explainable by any other diagnosable condition.

The point is that the diagnosis doesn't involve just looking at somebody's behaviour and saying "Yep, ADHD/autism". It's an in-depth examination of the individual's life, from very early childhood all the way to present day, with very specific markers to hit in order to reach the diagnostic threshold. The diagnostic process itself is brutal in the way it forces you to re-examine your entire life, and sometimes people even require counselling afterwards.

I think sometimes people mask their neurodiversities so people don’t realise the full extent that it affects them. For example when you say people taking calls they don’t want to causes them stress. For me at work I would say it’s stressful and get on with it but when I get home I wouldn’t be able to function for hours as that stress would cause me to have a burn out. Having a reasonable adjustment of a regular break might seem inconvenient or special treatment but it truly makes a difference.

Having a brain that doesn’t work the same way as everyone else’s is truly exhausting, at times embarrassing and makes everything so much harder.

That's a good way to help understand it, thank you for sharing!

I always say that the difference between being a bit forgetful sometimes and having adhd is like the difference between being a bit short sighted and needing a guide dog.

I am ND and it's like trying to be an adult but being surrounded by a thick fog that is just surrounding me. Or trying to get stuff done with about 10 people all shouting at you and telling you that you are doing it wrong. I can do most things (apart from drive) but it takes me at least 3 times as long as most people. It's really frustrating

I think what you're saying is part of the problem today. ADHD can be debilitating, you're living on hard mode all the time - should they get parking fines voided? No. Should they get reasonable adjustments to level the playing field? Yes.

ADHD isn't just being forgetful sometimes or having a bit of time blindness, it's living with a condition that impacts your entire life, it can affect your relationships with family, children and friends. It can be debilitating to the point people self medicate with alcohol or drugs, put themselves in risky/vulnerable situations. It can impact your career and how you parent your children. It can cause anxiety and depression. It isn't just a personality quirk.

Inattentive ADHD makes life very difficult. It's not just forgetfulness, it's a complete inability to plan, to keep track, to organise yourself.

My DH loses about a bank card about once a month, he's left his keys in the front door numerous times, we've had bailiffs at the door because he couldn't organise himself to pay bills but was hiding and hoarding them because he couldn't deal with the shame of not being able to organise himself, he's forgotten to collect a child from a party (I was away), he's run out of petrol, he's missed medical appointments over and over again, he never remembers to send things back if I don't do it, he genuinely doesn't know what day it is a lot of the time(I write the date on a board each day in the kitchen and still last week he forgot to put the bin out because he thought it was a different day), he's left his passport in a taxi, and just today he's gone on a business trip and I've found his full washbag left on the sink.

It's exhausting for me, so it must be even more so for him. It's far from forgetfulness.

Apart from misophonia, you've just described almost every peri-menopausal woman I know, including myself.

I'm 10 years in to it and there's been no improvement so far.

After reading your post I feel a little uneasy as my DS came to me about 10yrs ago(he was 22at the time) and asked me if I thought he could have adhd. He was studying part time and working full time I said if you do your coping with so much that I doubt it is a problem.
Reading what your husband is like is exactly what his life is like and I watch his wife get very frustrated with him.
I find it hard to believe he can be like this outside of a career that’s requires a high level of organisation and deadlines!! And he has been so successful.
Im thinking I should revisit the conversation with him!