AIBU to ask you what a "neurotypical" person is like?

[SplishSplash123]

I am a bit intrigued as to whether it's reasonable to think that NT people are put on a bit of a pedestal at times and assumed to have none of the issues that ND people have, when in reality I think most of us (NT and ND) have areas of strength and weakness and it's perfectly possible for someone to be NT and procrastinate/be forgetful/struggle with time blindness etc.

This comes from a debate with a friend recently where she said a parking fine should be voided if someone has ADHD because they have a reasonable excuse. She didn't accept my argument that it would then be just as valid for someone without ADHD, who might generally be forgetful, or who was simply having a very stressful day, to have also had a reasonable excuse.

I also see this in work sometimes, where people without reasonable adjustment passports are told to "get on" with things they struggle with (e.g. having to spend more time answering the phones to cover for colleagues who have had this part of their job taken away from them) without any understanding that this can be stressful and draining for some NT people too.

To be clear, I'm not saying people with ND don't have any right to reasonable adjustments/reasonable excuses etc (I believe they absolutely do!) but to want to acknowledge that we can all struggle with things at times and need a bit of understanding/support.

I expect there would be no demand for these though. Good thinking exercise though.

If I'm menopausal, stressed by unreasonable or disorganised employer, sleep deprived and then forgetful, kids are teenagers and push boundaries and I'm suffering from brain fog which makes learning another new work software a pain plus- do I fall under ND or NT? I had this discussion with collegue - she insisted ND as she had a diagnosis herself, I disagreed.

I had a friend at school that we all looked up. She was always the 'adult' in our group. She was always so organised, did all her homework, handed in work on time, revised for exams, basically a perfect student. Meanwhile I really struggled. I could never keep track of the class timetable, I missed homework instructions, lost my school books, could never get my homework in on time or I misinterpreted what we were meant to do. I was always copying her homework and asking her where/when the next class was. We spent 6 years of schooling together in a close knit friendship group so I knew her very well. When I went to uni I had a complete breakdown because I had no friends to support me and I missed so many classes because I couldn't work out where or when they were. I spent my entire first year by myself with no friends.

Apparently this is the difference between being ND and NT, because last year she was diagnosed with ADHD. Despite living in several countries, having a hugely successful career, setting up her own business...

Meanwhile, I've spent two decades trying to get myself organised, writing lists, setting alarms, minimising my possessions to prevent overwhelm, creating systems. It's not full proof, I still miss my train stops, I still lock myself out of the house, I still struggle with motivation at work every day. However I don't believe that I'm neurodivergent. I strongly believe I'm just someone that struggles with executive function on a daily basis. Almost everyone I know struggles deeply with life in a variety of ways that impact them on a daily basis and I don't think I'm any different.

Modern life is difficult and stressful in ways that it wasn't when our main stressors were not being eaten by predators and ensuring that we didn't starve or freeze to death. Our brains are overwhelmed with the amount of data we have to process daily. I'm convinced this is one of the reasons why more and more people are being diagnosed as ND.

My eldest is autistic with a 48 page book of other ND issues and life is undoubtedly much more exhausting for him. But, whilst it is great that there is more recognition of everyone's difficulties, it would be impossible for exemptions to be given for parking fines, shooting red lights, not bill paying, inadvertently shoplifting or whatever else may occur because someone is ND. That's never going to work!

No idea what the solution is. Increasingly I think people will just be burnt out by the time they are mid 30s, but I know that is not helpful or constructive.

And this is pretty much the exact point of this thread. No one can explain exactly how they feel to someone else. So when (supposedly) NT try to explain they are struggling with something a lot of ND people just tell them to be quiet and get on with it. NO ONE knows what another person is thinking or feeling or how something affects another person.
As I said earlier in the thread, I am diagnosed autistic. But for years believed I was NT. And to a lot of people who didn’t know me well, probably came across pretty NT. So if I was undiagnosed now and being told to suck things up purely because others perceived me as NT and with no struggles it would have made me life so much harder.

I also don’t like the implication on a lot of these threads that ND people are incapable of learning or changing their behaviour. Since being diagnosed I have done so much research into how I can improve my life and cope better with things. Because I can do a lot of things better now, does that mean I’m no longer autistic? I cringe at some of my old behaviours of years ago. Quite frankly I’m surprised I have any friends left. So I no longer behave like that in order to keep my friends and be a better person.

I’m not sure how true this is though. A very good friend of mine has recently got a diagnosis. She is a highly successful woman in her mid 40s who’s never really struggled more than the average person does in life. In fact I would wager that many NT (including myself) have had more bouts of depression / anxiety than she has.

Im not saying that she doesn’t have adhd, but I don’t think the threshold always has to be so high. It’s such a tricky one because so many NT have many issues that can impact their daily lives, so why don’t they get dispensation too?

In my son’s class, around a third of the class has a diagnosis of some sort which will give them extra time in exams etc. What happens to the kids who are just a bit slower? Shouldn’t they also get more time?

I have seen some autism assessments come back with ‘meets some of the criteria’. I think that suggests that it can be quite difficult l to categorise some people as one or the other. It seems pretty obvious to me that people don’t fit neatly into boxes, but that does seem to anger some people.

Lack of sleep is shit and it is well known it affects every aspect of one’s life. However, no-one here is saying there aren’t other conditions apart from AD and ADHD that affect functionality in life. OP is talking specifically about those conditions and reasonable adjustments. Other conditions and disabilities warrant reasonable adjustments at work and you could argue your case for them
But you can't because only conditions recognised under the disability act are protected, so the experience is totally different.

The point of my post is that disabled people don't have exclusivity over having it hard and there is no such thing as normality. Normality is a mix of many circumstances and some are as hard to cope daily than some disabilities.

Just to add to my last post...
If someone like my friend can be diagnosed with ADHD then I think they must be setting the bar pretty low. I'm certain that I could get a diagnosis if I wanted one, but if I'm neurodivergent and she's neurodivergent then I can't think of many people that wouldn't be.

I'd be very happy to never hear the words neurotypical or neurodiverse ever again (especially as applied to individuals - absolutely incoherent)

Agree with everything you’ve said @SplishSplash123

The act doesnt only recognise certain conditions.

It has its own definition of disability which is something like a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial effect on the ability to carry out day to day activities and will last 12 months or more.

I have adhd but I don't agree with your friend we should be exempt from fines?

I often find these posts very goady though as no one makes posts about physical disabilities in comparison with able bodied persons.

If I must answer then I always refer to this.

Yes we all have problems. Yes we all experience the same things a lot.

But if I put it this way, we all urinate right? However if it becomes 60 times a day then it becomes problematic right?

That's the difference.

You may feel what I feel on occasion. However you do not feel it as extreme or as frequent.

Remember there are different neurodiverse people.

Some have acquired brain injuries, some are dyslexic. Some are autistic and some ADHD. Some have tourettes.

We are branched under one umbrella but we all have experiences different to each other.

If I'm menopausal, stressed by unreasonable or disorganised employer, sleep deprived and then forgetful, kids are teenagers and push boundaries and I'm suffering from brain fog which makes learning another new work software a pain plus- do I fall under ND or NT? I had this discussion with collegue - she insisted ND as she had a diagnosis herself, I disagreed
Exactly that. Frankly, it's now coming down to just believing everything people say because noone really knows how other people feel, whether diagnosed with something or not. One might be going through the menopause but experience few symptoms, another person might become completely unable to function. Same with ADHD or autism. One might struggle with day to day tasks whilst another person might cope well because they are affected differently.

The problem is that it feels more and more that people labelled themselves by what they can't do rather than what they can do and nobody is allowed to challenge them. The parking ticket is one example. How can anyone possibly make a judgement on who genuinely didn't have the capacity to remember the time or pay the right amount compared to someone who go distracted unexpectedly. A diagnosis certainly isn't the appropriate way to decide.

What seems to be going down the pan is accepting some self responsibility and focusing on what one can put in place to minimise negative consequences rather than automatically be discharged of any responsibility of the negative consequences once they have happened.

I think part of the wider issue is the assumption that there are only two types of brain functioning - typical and divergent. When in actuality, each of those categories encompasses an infinite range of characteristics, some of which even overlap.

Our human tendency to strictly categorise everything really isn't helpful sometimes.

This, at least, is an easy one to answer - on the assumption that the menopause is the only cause of your issues, then your colleague is wrong; you fall under NT because a) the menopause hasn't permanently altered the structure of your brain (obviously), and b) all ND conditions are present from birth and observable from early developmental periods.

Only some people will do that.

It isn't more and more becoming a problem.

You have no idea if the poster is genuine and their friend even said that!

I got a diagnosis because I needed some reasonable adjustments at work.

I have only been diagnosed since 2023 and I have been in this job 20 years.

Unfortunately as I've gotten older the symptoms are getting worse, compounded by hormonal changes as women get older.

When lockdown happened, they became so noticable I couldn't ignore them anymore.

I've always had these symptoms but when I was younger, it was easier to deal with and I had a lot more energy. I also had my own ways to deal with them I guess.

Then lockdown happened and all those processes forcibly removed and I sank.

With a few minor adjustments that don't impact on anyone I work with, I am flying through my work.

Yes it has taken a few tries to work with myself and find what works for me. But my employers have been great and helped me along the way.

It is hard as I am looking at a screen 8 hours a day and taking in very sensitive and detailed information, which with concentration issues can be problematic. We have responsibility with our job and I have to be accurate. Being able to wear ear phones helps with this. I stand up every hour and stretch or walk for a bit.

I have taken full responsibility for myself. I am researching always to make my life better for me. I am also waiting adhd coaching to help futher improvement.

What we don't need is misinformation and judgement.

There will always be people who use things as an excuse but there will be people who have more severe adhd than me so I can't judge anyone.

I chose to do it the hard way and not be medicated. There are too many risks with them but I do also use other practical methods to help myself.

Don't be so quick to judge.

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and all that.

I agree. Her thinking was that I must have been masking when I was younger, because my life was impacted at present My argument was that the lack of evidence is not the evidence itself, and I'm more impacted by life stage than hypothetical ND.

The thing is, where is the line between being ADHD, and just being lackadaisical/dozy/ditsy/CBA to get a move on/ - or whatever you like to call it?

All of these threads recently are so depressing to me as the parent of two autistic DC. They all seem to foster the belief that are all these people being "unnecessarily" diagnosed with neurodivergent disorders and creating the impression that people are being given "unfair" adjustments.

Both my DC are diagnosed with autism but neither have any cognitive impairment. I am already in despair about how my eldest DC in particular will manage. As well as autism she has selective mutism and social anxiety - both co-morbid with autism. She cannot attend school - around 80% of children with EBSA are neurodivergent. She's academically capable but even if by some miracle she manages to achieve any qualifications I can't see how she will ever be employed and live independently. She would need so many adjustments to even get a job as there is no way she would succeed through the traditional interview and recruitment process. However, because she is verbal (at home anyway), can manage self-care and is aware of danger there will always be those who begrudge any support she might get (if there even is any). And that's what these threads increasingly seem to be about - doubting people's struggles and begrudging support.

If there are undiagnosed people out there who seem to believe that they are struggling with the same sorts of issues as a person diagnosed with a neurodivergent disorder then by all means go for an assessment yourself and see what marvellous things fall into your lap if you get a diagnosis.

Of course you're right. People absolutely love to imply that the distinction between an ND and NT brain is clear and obvious but this isn't the case.

Autism is a great example. Many people will be desperate to tell you that there is no such thing as 'mild' Autism despite the fact that there are clearly people with Autism that struggle with incontinence, can't feed themselves or even speak and there are people with Autism like Elon Musk who is literally the richest man in the world. Grouping them together and pretending that they suffer from Autism to the same extent is beyond cruel. By the same token, many of these ND advocates will be desperate to not recognise people that have loads of Broader Autism Phenotype traits as being Autistic at all. Apparently not meeting an arbitrary threshold makes these people Neurotypical and negates all their struggles. It is absolutely bonkers and gatekeeping at its finest.

At the heart of all of this is a concern from the ND community that if they acknowledge the grey and accept that actually people aren't born with binary ND or NT brains then this will make them less special and worthy of less accommodations and support as it will dilute what is available. This is happening anyway though. Diagnoses are exploding and more and more people are seeking help. The sooner we get rid of the arbitrary ND/NT labels and focus more on accepting everyone's struggles then the world will be a much better and fairer place.

The line is in the clinical diagnostic criteria which is used for assessment.

The DSM-5 model has changed significantly in the last few decades when it comes to ADHD. The threshold has reduced significantly to 5 out of 9 symptoms for adults ADHD and the age of initial presentation has increased. This isn't some definitive, objective test that people like to pretend it is. We are still only scratching the surface of all of this from a scientific perspective and much of what we are testing is still highly subjective and based on best guess.

I agree both ND and NT have strengths and weaknesses but ND people live in a world designed by and for NT people.

That’s why ND people need adjustments because NT people expect them to fit into an NT world.

We all struggle with different things. I’m def not ND but i def have some struggles that ND people may find hard too.

I’m paranoid about getting parking tickets - I’m not driving atm due to medical issues but I’ve prob had two in 25 years of driving and they were rescinded!!
The only time I was bang to rights was being caught in a crosshatch as I thought the car in front was going to move forward.

Nowdays my short term memory is crap due to meds and menopause so I’d be more likely to forget things esp if busy, but I would t expect special treatment.

IMO & IME they don’t have enough of the traits of any of the the neurodiverse disorders, conditions, etc. Or at least not to the degree where it negatively impacts their daily life.

BUT this does not mean they are perfectly able to manage all of the things, all of the time and pick up the slack of other people’s issues with not even a drop of extra sweat or stress.

They have their own problems. Some with have an offical diagnosis of another kind. Others won’t, but still are bound by the human reality of only 24 hours a day, not finding all things easy all the time, humanly limited energy and moods just like everybody else..

One of the benefits of being a 70s and 80s kid/young adult is that I’m older than my diagnosis’s name. So I didn’t grow up with the expectation that if I can’t do something the right way, in the right timeframe, it must fall to somebody else to cover the difference between expectation and outcome. In my diagnosis specific online community I watched younger people in my group tend to expend quite significant energy outward, annoyed with NTs not helping, almost forgetting they were humans with their own issues and problems. My cohort of oldies tended to be more inward focused, as in how can we help ourselves and get over hurdles.

Perhaps it’s just that we older ones are running out of road for change and nothing to do with modern expectations of help and support. But by and large my impression is that we oldies made more measurable progress over the 18 months, because we pretty much accepted any change was going to come from us, for us and by us.

However I was born in the 60s and accept I am something of a fossil in terms of acceptable opinions for people with ADHD (and menopause, thanks Mother Nature for that lovely combo. Thanks a bunch) 😅