AIBU to ask you what a "neurotypical" person is like?

[SplishSplash123]

I am a bit intrigued as to whether it's reasonable to think that NT people are put on a bit of a pedestal at times and assumed to have none of the issues that ND people have, when in reality I think most of us (NT and ND) have areas of strength and weakness and it's perfectly possible for someone to be NT and procrastinate/be forgetful/struggle with time blindness etc.

This comes from a debate with a friend recently where she said a parking fine should be voided if someone has ADHD because they have a reasonable excuse. She didn't accept my argument that it would then be just as valid for someone without ADHD, who might generally be forgetful, or who was simply having a very stressful day, to have also had a reasonable excuse.

I also see this in work sometimes, where people without reasonable adjustment passports are told to "get on" with things they struggle with (e.g. having to spend more time answering the phones to cover for colleagues who have had this part of their job taken away from them) without any understanding that this can be stressful and draining for some NT people too.

To be clear, I'm not saying people with ND don't have any right to reasonable adjustments/reasonable excuses etc (I believe they absolutely do!) but to want to acknowledge that we can all struggle with things at times and need a bit of understanding/support.

@Moro93 I wasn't having a go at you, sorry if it came across like that, it's just a trend that I find frustrating. There are huge number of conditions like Ms, Parkinsons, dementia, downs syndrome, aquired brain injury, and loads of others that affect the brain, and they are never included in ND. As well as other none neurological issues that cause people all sorts of difficulties. Not that I think lumping so many diverse conditions under ND would be helpful either! I think It would be better if people referred to the specific conditions they are talking about, and recognised that there are lots of other difficulties people may have, whether due to other disabilities or various life circumstances, which can make life as hard or harder. I think the current way of looking at things encourages this binary way of thinking where there are people who are ND, (usually autism/adhd and occasionally 1 or 2 more conditions slipped in) and everyone else is Neurotypical, and life is assumed to be easier for them. I think it leads to a great deal of misunderstanding and resentment on both sides.

In theory NT = the brain structure/functioning of the majority of the population.

So if you drew up a big list of brain functionality, and for each found a norm in the population, and average functionality, you would end up with the NT brain.

Very few people would conform to this exactly, but again, in theory, most people would be close enough on enough functions to fall into a boundary of "typical"

ND people would then be those who, on some (more or less) of the functions fall outside of the norm, perhaps some above the norm, but mostly focused on those bellow the norm.

In an ideal world this would be observed as a physical difference in brain function, but in reality its assessed by specialists looking at (sometimes subjective) sets of criteria that weigh a range of factors that the academic/clinical research has justified as being part of an observable pattern in a significant group of people. E.g. Autistic people tend to exhibit X traits, Dyslexic people tend to exhibit Y traits. If you exhibit traits that match the patterns, and are to a severe/impactful enough degree, then = diagnosis is given.

However, the exact groupings of traits, and the exact degree to which it is severe enough to warrant diagnosis are always changing and progressing as our understanding/research into the conditions improve. And the sometimes subjective nature of some of the criteria leaves a lot down to how individual specialists/healthcare systems interpret a person's functionality. So it isn't as concrete or certain as a lot would like it to be. That shouldn't ever be used to undermine diagnosis though - but it should contextualize the framing as "under our best current understanding this is assigned diagnosis".

So yes, it is perfectly possible for a "NT" person to display "ND"-like functionality in some aspects. But they likely don't do so across enough functions and to a severity to conform with any of the patterns that underpin the conditions we currently have diagnosis for.

E.g. A neurotypical person can be just as forgetful as someone with diagnosed ADHD, but if they don't have the consistency of enough of the other traits identified as part of the pattern of ADHD, they are still classed as NT. There is no need to downplay their forgetful-ness, or undermine the other person's diagnosis.

Both should pay their parking fine though....

Brilliantly put, thank you for being far better with words than me!

The reason I focused on those things is that you're equating NT traits with ND traits, and that's just not valid.

Absent actual clinical problems (which would have an actual diagnosis worthy of accommodations), NT forgetfulness is not remotely the same thing as ADHD inability to focus, neither in terms of the extent to which it occurs or the underlying mechanisms. NT dislike of noise is not the same as autistic sensory difficulties. NT social awkwardness is not the same as autistic inability to understand social norms or comprehend facial expressions.

And, crucially, NT compensation for those traits is not the same as ND masking.

It's not too dissimilar to the difference between discomfort and pain; discomfort can be worked around and/or ignored. Pain cannot. As an example, you might dislike having slightly sticky hands after cooking, but you'd be able to get on with what you're doing until the opportunity to wash your hands presents itself. I, on the other hand, would be completely unable to function until my hands were clean - my IQ drops to double-digits, I'm not really able to speak and I can't focus on somebody speaking a simple sentence.

I have ADHD and work out exactly how long a task should take. I then triple that number and give myself that much time to do it. I usually end up rushing a bit at the end but generally end up on time.

Yes NT people can have issues with some of the things ND people have issues with, but imagine every day to day task took you three times longer than expected? You'd suddenly get almost nothing done.

The severity is what's important rather than the actual symptoms.

My step dad is a NT and bit shit at getting ready on time. If he needs to leave the house at 8am then he'll start getting ready at 7:45am and will leave the house at 8:03 after a mad dash.

For me to leave the house at 8am I have to set an alarm at 4am so I'm awake properly at 5am to start getting up / showered / dressed. I'll be ready by about 7:55am. Even though technically I'm more "on time" than him I had a much greater difficulty doing the task and spent way more time on it. I do have some physical disabilities slowing me down but a friend who has mostly the same difficulty as me but who is ND only takes around an hour instead of 3.

I think you're trying to minimise the impact being ND can have, for whatever reason.

people without reasonable adjustment passports this is quite a bitter phrase.

I think this is a goady thread.

Having a brain that doesn’t work the same way as everyone else’s is truly exhausting, at times embarrassing and makes everything so much harder
Again, it's the 'everyone else' that I personally have an issue with. ADHD and Autism are not the only two conditions that causes the brain to struggle with every day life.

I suffered with a sleep disorder that wasn't recognised for over 5 years. It was hell and had significant impact on my every day life, including memory. Yet I fitted into the 'everyone else' category. Even with a diagnosis, I would still fit into that category because it isn't recognised as a disability.

Sleep issues, menopause, highly stressful circumstances, all these are issues non disabled people suffer from that can have as significant, and in some cases, more significant impact on someone's life. Yet they have to get on with it with no sympathy.

Imagine trying to get out of paying a parking ticket because my sleep issues mean my concentration levels can be as low as 10% on some days.

I think most of us are aware that NT people can struggle with aspects of life too. The adjustments are to t eh and level the playing field a bit for those with disabilities (which can be anything of course, not just ND). I don’t think those who don’t have ADHD or ASD quite realise how disabling it can actually be, even for those of us who appear ‘normal’ at work. You don’t get a diagnosis unless you’ve been significantly impacted throughout your life. My DH is NT and suffers from a couple of issues to me like procrastination, anxiety about aspects of his work, disorganization, but his responses to these are way off what mine are (and of course I have many, many other things I struggle with that he doesn’t). If he’s had a bad day with it he doesn’t go in to melt down mode, he can still go out to the shop if we need something, can still make and eat dinner, is able to drink if he’s thirsty, can tolerate our kids playing. And ND people will also be struggling with many things at a time, imagine struggling with overwhelm form work, and then also struggling with sensory issues from the car seat belt on the way home or even worse the bus/train if you have to get public transport, and maybe you have an appointment at the doctors tomorrow so that throws everything for the rest of the day and tomorrow until the appointment.

Sometimes undiagnosed people can’t either. You know there are plenty of undiagnosed people out there who still have conditions but just for whatever reason have not been diagnosed? I was diagnosed as an adult. Before diagnosis I was constantly told to grow up/suck it up/get on with it etc. To everyone telling me these things I appeared to do just that. Until I got home and pretty much broke down. I used to hurt myself and drink and smoke and scream. I used to think I was NT (and just a crap person) before I really understood autism etc. I’m sure there are still plenty of people like pre diagnosed me out there. And by saying undiagnosed people just have to get on with it all, you’re pretty much forcing some people to seek diagnosis in order to cope in life. I’m sure plenty of ND could cope without a diagnosis a lot of the time, but when they’re told they then need to take on everyone else’s work that they can’t do, they then can’t cope either.

You also get some people that don’t quite meet the threshold for a diagnosis but may for example have extreme issues with using the phone. But they have no significant problems in other aspects of life. Why should this person have to answer everyone else’s phone calls purely because everyone else has a diagnosis and they don’t? No diagnosis doesn’t mean no issues. You could take a job which involved on average 1 phone call a day. You’d think it’s ok, I hate the phone but I will manage that one. Then 3 others in your team “can’t answer the phone” so you need to take their calls. Now you’re answering 4+ calls a day and can no longer cope.

I’m not sure if someone who can’t do any of those things should be driving in all honesty. What if they are involved in a crash? Or the car breaks down on a motorway? Or they hit someone? You need to be able to manage that situation. If you can’t even manage to try and not get a parking ticket how would you cope with the other situations?

Those of us who have ADHD refer to "ADHD tax" and this would include a parking fine because you either forgot to buy a ticket, forgot how much time you'd put on the car or (this didn't happen to me, I swear ....) forgot you'd taken the car and waken home
In my 40+ years of driving I’ve done all of these things.
Fortunately in most car parks these days you pay by app and the app notifies you if you’re about to go over your time. If someone is that inattentive that these things happen on a regular basis, perhaps they shouldn’t be driving!

There certainly aren’t many on MN.
Only a few without disabilities of some description too. Is MN a true or distorted microcosm do you think?

Do you understand ADHD traits at all? I have ADHD and ASD. I am perfectly capable of driving a car, and have managed situations like car breaking down and someone crashing in to me. I cannot simply pay a parking fine. I have got them before for forgetting to pay, and I’m not saying I shouldn’t get a fine. But I can’t pay them, not that I can’t afford it, I have a job so I can, but can’t pay.

Why can’t you pay it?

Because I can’t start on things like that. I will know I need to pay it, I know when the deadline for the reduced rate is, I know the process of how you pay it, but I can’t actually do it. Same for many things in my life, like doctors appointments, ordering repeat medication prescriptions, making and going to dentist appointments, paying credit card bills, making phone calls that have to be done, returning clothes. I will understand the consequences and get really anxious about everything, it’s a bad time for me when this happens. It was a big factor in my diagnosis.

Same as when I’m overwhelmed but am thirsty, I really really want a drink and can have one in front of me staring at me but I can’t drink it.

I didn’t say just forgetting to pay a fine. The person I quoted said an ADHD person may not be able to set a reminder on their phone, look at the reminder, and know what to do about it.
If you can’t do any of those things how can you drive? Do you see the speed limit sign and forget to look at it or not know what to do about it? Do you forget to slow down? Forget to stop at a zebra crossing or might not know what to do when you approach it? What about those with babies and children? Do they forget to put them in car seats or put their own seatbelt on? Or maybe forget to take their babies out the car and leave them there and go shopping all day?

I think the ND umbrella is not clearly defined and growing so quickly to include all sorts of diagnoses that soon will be no one left who could be NT. Whatever NT may be.

I agree other struggles are being minimised - trauma, abuse, domestic violence, mental health or mental illness, poverty etc. There are also all the other 'diagnoses' which don't even have agreed criteria - demand avoidance, rejection sensitivity etc. Great posts recently from Naomi Fisher on FB - we're insisting all behaviours are biological and we stop ourselves from even attempting to change.

I think sometimes even ND can’t quite explain it.
I lose everything. I’ve had to replace my passport 3 times in the past five years, I had to once replace my bank card about 6 times in a single year. It will happen again. NT people are the ones who will say things like ‘why don’t you do abc to stop this’ but it just happens even though I try everything. It’s exhausting and I wish I knew why.

It’s not necessarily about forgetting as you would think it. As in we dint look at a zebra crossing and forget what it’s for or forget to stop. With parking it’s an actual task, you don’t forget how to do it, but you may forget that it needs doing or needs extending, or know that it does but simply not able to do it right that second and then the thoughts gone a few minutes later, or you know and you can’t actually do the task. Task paralysis. It’s completely different from an in the moment function like driving. People with ADHD aren’t stupid and we know the rules of the road.

Lack of sleep is shit and it is well known it affects every aspect of one’s life. However, no-one here is saying there aren’t other conditions apart from AD and ADHD that affect functionality in life. OP is talking specifically about those conditions and reasonable adjustments. Other conditions and disabilities warrant reasonable adjustments at work and you could argue your case for them.

This is exactly it, it’s so hard to explain to someone who isn’t affected by this.

I dont think we should put a limit on compassion. If someone is struggling at work we should look to help them.

I think reasonable ultimately is what a tribunal/court would deem reasonable not your friend and you could have endless discussion about what or wasn't reasonable in the meantime.

I do think you need a legal framework to protect people being discriminated against on the grounds of thier disability.

There are plenty of bits of the framework that apply to nt people too, such as race, religion and sexutality and sex, maternity.

What about putting your child’s seatbelt on then? Or your own? They are tasks. What if you are putting your child in the car and your phone rings? Or someone distracts you? So you can’t do it right that moment. Would you forget?

It’s also worth remembering that the NT people you see might actually be ND who have not been diagnosed. There will be a lot of people walking around doing their best to deal with what they think is just their personality traits, who might actually meet the ND criteria if assessed.
It’s not quite as simple as everyone who isn’t diagnosed is NT, obviously.

So yes, an NT person might be finding things just as hard as an ND person, because they don’t actually realise they are ND.