AIBU to ask you what a "neurotypical" person is like?

[SplishSplash123]

I am a bit intrigued as to whether it's reasonable to think that NT people are put on a bit of a pedestal at times and assumed to have none of the issues that ND people have, when in reality I think most of us (NT and ND) have areas of strength and weakness and it's perfectly possible for someone to be NT and procrastinate/be forgetful/struggle with time blindness etc.

This comes from a debate with a friend recently where she said a parking fine should be voided if someone has ADHD because they have a reasonable excuse. She didn't accept my argument that it would then be just as valid for someone without ADHD, who might generally be forgetful, or who was simply having a very stressful day, to have also had a reasonable excuse.

I also see this in work sometimes, where people without reasonable adjustment passports are told to "get on" with things they struggle with (e.g. having to spend more time answering the phones to cover for colleagues who have had this part of their job taken away from them) without any understanding that this can be stressful and draining for some NT people too.

To be clear, I'm not saying people with ND don't have any right to reasonable adjustments/reasonable excuses etc (I believe they absolutely do!) but to want to acknowledge that we can all struggle with things at times and need a bit of understanding/support.

But NT people are not disabled!

ND people are.

HTH.

Do you want a blue badge whilst you're at it?

The reason it seems a bit woolly is because it is. There are no hard and fast criteria that differentiate a ND person from a NT person, because intensity, frequency and impact are a judgement call. It’s also true that some NT people can have a personality issue that impacts their life a lot, but it’s not a medical problem. As an example my DSis is extremely introverted. It has impacted her life hugely, particularly in relation to her career.

You know NT people deciding they know best on issues that ND people suffer from, shouldn't happen.

Bit like when men decide what should happen about women's reproductive systems, despite never having a period.

Terrible analogy. Sex can be easily tested using a definitive objective biological test. We have fought long and hard for people's 'feelings' on the matter to not be confused with biological fact. We don't have anywhere near this level of scientific certainty around the difference between a ND and NT brain. Much is best guess and built on inherent subjectivity. Pretending otherwise is misleading at best and incredibly damaging at worst. This is an area we are right to question and challenge.

Yes everyone should be supported where they're struggling regardless of being NT or having ND diagnosis. That is a different thing though to comparing NT and ND. The diagnosis is about more than one trait and how those traits (not just one) together affect the person's daily living from childhood to adulthood. That's the criteria.

Besides that, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something. ND people do so as well as all the other issues they struggle with being ND.

Talking about "a neurotypical person" is more like talking about "an average person" - there is not actually a person you can point to and say there, that is Mr. Average. We are all average in some ways, and unusual/extreme in others.

But you could for example say "Greg Davies is taller than the average man" and talk about issues that might affect somebody who is unusually tall, without implying that every man shorter than Greg Davies is exactly the same height and never experiences a doorway which is too short or trousers that don't fit.

To act as though everyone without a ND diagnosis is in a category named "NT" is a misunderstanding of the term. It's a common one so your friend might also misunderstand it this way.

Or some people over-egg their (already-present but mild) difficulties in order to get the diagnosis, so they can use that "card" when needed. This is what I think about people who aren't struggling but somehow have got their diagnosis, especially in adulthood.

Some people have even mentioned in posts how they or their children are rarely affected yet they have the diagnosis. So I think they exaggerated their/their children's symptoms or frequency or impact, otherwise they wouldn't be able to meet the threshold.

Around 0.5% of the population will be as tall as Greg Davies. The fact he is tall can be objectively observed by a medical professional, quantified and the struggles that he would face as a result of this are easily understand.

Over half the population now believe that they are ND. To have this belief, I think it's fair to assume that they suffer from some traits that adversely impact their life in a meaningful way. It is estimated that 20% of the population would get a formal diagnosis but nobody really knows. As I mentioned previously, the threshold has lowered for ADHD over the past few decades and it could well be moved again as our knowledge and understanding improves. It is important to point out that many people who have the Broader Autism Phenotype could have very real challenges associated with a lower number of Autistic traits than what is required to meet the threshold for diagnosis. It is understandable that these people feel aggrieved that their struggles are undiagnosed whilst people with more, less severe traits manage to receive a diagnosis.

Like it or not, there is an element of discrimination associated with pretending there is a binary difference between ND and NT. You can see it on this thread. NT people are assumed to almost be a different species that can't possible understand the struggles of the ND but the science simply doesn't verify this kind of distinction. There is an enormous amount of overlap and actually someone that is supposedly NT can indeed have more struggles associated with ND traits than someone with a formal ND diagnosis. The false certainty is infuriating and really damaging!

@Personperson, your last post describes me to a T. I suffer from the same difficulties women with adhd describe. I am almost certain I would get a clinical diagnosis of adhd. I am not interested in doing so because like you, I wouldn't want to be medicated, so what's the point.

We're learning to cope and adapt. I also recognise the benefits that have come with being adhd. I hate labels. I am me, the awkward annoying person who drives you mad when you first meet, who comes across all scathered minded until you get to know me and see another side to me.

Sadly, I do believe there is a tendency to seek diagnosis to justify actions and want to be treated preferably, with a sense of entitlement because ND people, as a generalisation, have it harder than others.

Perimenopause pushed me from semi functioning to non. The anxiety levels were just crippling. There’s a current “epidemic” of “women of a certain age” being recognised as having adhd as adhd and peri is described as “the perfect storm”

I am ASD and a late diagnosis. I was an "odd" child and have worked full time since I left University. I am very intelligent but my people skills can be very hit and miss. I have worked from home for nearly 20 years which has allowed me to cope. I've always known that work-me and home-me where two totally different people and it's only since diagnosis that I realise that work-me is masking and home-me is not. My parents were surprised recently to find out that I find showering a challenge (I am 48!) I knew from a young age what was normal and I have pretended I am normal for most of my life and no-one really know what I struggle with.

All people have to obey the law so I don't think those with ADHD should get away with not paying their parking fines, but I do see why they get them.

As an example:
Sensory issues are my biggest issue - as an example: Trousers - oh god I hate trousers. But I get cold. So skirts work great in the summer but in the winter I have to deal with trousers. I buy them, lots of them, different types. I try them. Some are ok on good days but on bad days the trousers don't make it past lunchtime and I end up wrapped in a blanket. Lots of them are sent back or never re-worn and then donated. How do people wear trousers? Don't suggest tights - worse than trousers :(
Shoes - my crocs are ok, my slippers, my trainers but those nasty pointy things... Arrghh. I buy them for work events and I carry them around and still end up wearing my trainers!! Slip ons fall off, heels are so awful. I am getting married next year and will be wearing my trainers. I would LOVE pretty shoes. I drool over them. I have spent £thousands over the years on shoes I end up giving away because I can't wear them.
Bras - I am a big girl but just can't wear a proper bra. They touch me, they make me feel "itchy". It's like a building pressure until I eventually explode. A bit like shoes - I love lingerie, I have a draw full and, as usual, I have a grey badly fitting cami top on instead as it's all I can face and even that might come off before lunch but then my t-shirt will touch me and that will be wrong too.
Socks, jumpers, t-shirts... Clothes generally. Don't start me on noises, the dishwasher is on and I can hear it and it's driving me nuts, I may have to go in and turn it off in a minute and try and finish the cycle later. Oh and lights, most are just TOO bright. And smells - my bathroom currently smells "funny". It's not BAD, it's just wrong so now I can't go in there. I need a wee but I have to deal with the smell first and I don't know what's causing it so I am avoiding the issue and writing this.
I could go on, food, noisy places, people, showering (yuck but needs doing) it's all hard and I fight myself all the time to try and do normal things against the "itch" of my clothes, strong smells bright lights, noises, etc.. My hair cut is 3 months overdue and I just can't - they talk to me and touch me and just no. I'll go when I can but it's not now.

Yes - everyone hates bras. Plenty of people find high heeled shoes uncomfortable but if you get the full collection of strange things then you are no longer NT.

I assume NT people get up in the morning and shower. I guess they shower even if the morning routine has been changed a little (I can't, change the routine = no shower, bathroom smells odd = no shower, towel feels funny = no shower). They open their drawers and pick clothes according to what they want to wear or the activities of the day (I don't I pick the clothes I think I can cope with and sometimes it's a nighty and often requires 3 or 4 changes to get something that doesn't feel terrible). They go downstairs and make the breakfast they want or have time for (I don't, eating in the morning is double hard on the sensory issues and the kitchen is worst for smells so often I can't eat at all first thing). I assume they put on shoes that match their outfit (rather than whatever they think they can cope with wearing) and head to work. I could continue with the rest of the day's issues but I had better go play hunt the smell in the bathroom or I'll have to go up my mum's house for a wee (won't be the first time!)

I really hate this line constantly being trotted out. Firstly, no one can go back and say with fact that the “people who designed the world” are NT. As time goes on more and more historical figures are being “diagnosed” as having a ND condition. (I hate this as well because you cannot diagnose someone you never met with anything). But, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t have it that ND people were always so pushed down and couldn’t find a place in the world, yet at the same time say so many leaders and famous people actually had a ND condition.

Secondly, not all ND people would “design the world” in the same way even if they were in charge! I’m autistic. I love rules, excellent time keeping and for everyone to be (as close to) dead silent while in places in classrooms, trains and theatres. That is how I would design the world. Someone with a different ND condition may want no strict rules, as much noise and fidget toys or phones on loud etc as possible at all times! And no time restrictions on anything because of their time blindness. How do me and them work out the world that fits both of us?

I never really know if I'm ND.
the first time someone referred to me as being so, was a bit of a surprise.
I have OCD. Have I been clinically diagnosed? No. But this is because I was dismissed by a GP as a child (I had to take my self to the doctors with a magazine article because before that article it had no name for me and I had noone to advocate for me), and a rubbish parent who saw my rituals and obsessive behaviour and did nothing. However, a number of CBT counsellors and therapists, and finally a GP, have said that in their opinion is in undoubtedly OCD.
Regardless, I know it is. For years it was absolutely debilitating and I have cycled my way through various obsessions, suffered panic for months at a time and engaged in many a bizarre ritual, largely all hidden from everyone else.
I'm on a low dose ssri now and I've done the work, a lot of it, and I'm now pretty much fully functioning. I do have to manage it, because I'm only ever a couple of behaviours away from a full on relapse. Thanks to those neural pathways, I can slip easily and fall hard. A few weeks of obsessions and rituals takes months to recover from (and usually a trip to the doctors).
Anyway, I don't know if I'm ND. Apparently OCD is, but I functionally awesomely (if I may say so) and because of that I don't feel ND. Probably a bit of imposter syndrome but as the OCD no longer impairs my life to much extent, surely I'm not? It's quite confusing.
I have friends whose anxieties have become, on occasion, debilitating, but they wouldn't be considered ND for that. So it's all a bit of a quagmire without a diagnoses. I'm pretty sure if I went privately I would get one. So, for people who can't afford it, it's not a level playing field.

Sorry that you hate this.

But your hate doesn’t persuade me
of my difference of opinion to you.

Are you not going to address any of the other points? Do you think you can confidently say that no world leader (designer?) in history has had a ND condition? What about Elon Musk? He’s ND and in a position of power. Would you be confident he would make the world as you like it? Would you be confident his workplace would be very accommodating to all ND people?

How would two totally different ND people ensure the “world” was perfect and designed for both of them?

I mean, I specifically picked a very tall person because most people know him and know the fact that he is tall and so would immediately understand the sentence. The numbers are not really the relevant part. I was using it to illustrate the concept that you can use "average" as a thing to compare a single person (or group of people e.g. "People over 6ft are taller than average") to, without assuming that "average" refers to a specific person or that everyone inside "average" is exactly the same.

I agree that using ND/NT as discrete and binary categories is incorrect and a bit annoying - I mostly see this happening on social media type platforms although agree it does get used that way here on MN.

I also suspect that a bit of what is going on is crossed wires, e.g. Amanda who is aware of the correct usage of the term NT, puts up a post talking about how people with a specific condition tend to have higher prevalence of e.g. parking fines "than NT people" and she means this in the same sense as "tall people bump their heads more often than average".

Becky believes that NT and ND are binary categories and you're in one or the other. So she posts something with this lens. Like "NT people are so uncreative!" or one of those comparisons: "ND person does X, NT person does Y"

But another day, Becky might make a similar point to Amanda and say "ND people pay out £200 extra per year in parking fines than NT."

If Amanda sees Becky's first post, she would immediately see that Becky has incorrectly classified NT as a discrete and defined category, but if Amanda only sees Becky's second post, she would not necessarily know which definition she is using and probably assumes that Becky is using the definition that Amanda uses.

OTOH if Becky sees Amanda's post, she is likely reading it with the assumption that Amanda is lumping everyone without ND into a category called NT.

So Becky's assumption is essentially invisible and unlikely to be challenged because most statements in Amanda's view can be read as though they mean Becky's view, and many of Becky's statements can be read as though she has Amanda's understanding of the term.

Kind of like how people end up writing "could of" because they are mishearing "could've" but because the majority of the time they are speaking, other people assume they are saying "could've" and don't correct them.

I assume NT people get up in the morning and shower
This is where things can get lost in the world of assumptions. I hate showering. Really hate it. I was the sane as a kid and it caused problems with my parents understandably. I'm in my 50s and only shower when I start smelling. Thankfully I am one of the lucky people who don't smell for some time. I shower every other day at best, even with exercising, sometimes I'll go 3 days.

You'd never guess because I'm very caring about my appearance and love dressing nicely. I just hate showering. Oh and I haven't worn knickers for over 20 years. I hate them too. Same issues with shoes. I'm definitely not autistic though.

Assumptions are wrong on both sides of the coin.

That is really interesting! Most of my "normal" friends have expressed horror or confusion at some of my pecadillos such as the showering issue. It is nice to know some of these things are more normal than I thought. I knew the bra and pointy shoes thing. I feel for your showering problems. The horrors of having to take off warm and comfortable pjs and get into a cold and wet box and then be soggy and have to dry yourself with a towel.... Yurk, nasty!! My partner enjoys showers and spends ages in there having "shower thoughts!" - weirdo!!

The horrors of having to take off warm and comfortable pjs and get into a cold and wet box and then be soggy and have to dry yourself with a towel.... Yurk, nasty!!
Haha, that and don't really like the feeling of water dripping over me, especially my hands. Don't like washing up for that reason too 😁

Washing up? Oh my god yes, I have a dishwasher but rinsing dishes is nasty and putting your hands into a bowl of water which may also have THINGs lurking in it... Not fun! Any those yellow glove things... They feel horrible but also come with a strange smell that lingers. And soggy sleeves 😱
Luckily I cook and my partner cleans the kitchen so mostly it's not a problem.

Showering is interesting as I think the majority of people would assume it's 'normal' to shower once a day when in reality most people shower more or less than this. I think it's a great example of where the 'normal' behaviour is actually only really exhibited by the minority of people.
https://yougov.co.uk/health/articles/22184-three-quarters-brits-probably-shower-too-much

I haven't read the whole thread because, based on past experience, some of the replies are likely to drive me to the point of meltdown due to the level of misunderstanding involved.... I also won't be returning to read any replies for the same reason.

I know the example you mentioned was related to struggles with ADHD, but also asked what a neurotypical person is, and mentioned NT/ND struggles in general.... so I hope it is appropriate to comment based on wider neurodivergence.

I'm AuDHD and have Tourette's too, so don't know what it is like to be be neurotypical. However, some examples of my specific struggles associated with neurodivergence, which I don't necessarily think that many neurotypical people would relate to (and almost certainly not all of these struggles together/to the same extent that I do) include:

History of really extreme impulsivity, including randomly trying to get out of moving vehicles - things that could have caused me serious harm/death or got me arrested.

History of what I will delicately call "sensory seeking toileting behaviour" including inappropriate behaviour with urine and faeces as a child, including an older child/into my teens.

History of eating non-edible objects.

Extreme sensory sensitivities to the extent of this resulting in repeated/serious self-harm, even in public, if I can't escape certain overwhelming situations.

History of self-harm in general due to meltdowns/overwhelm.

Struggles due to the inattentive aspect of my ADHD leading to serious amounts of debt.

Needing a support worker to communicate for me in situations such as meetings with professionals, because my autistic communication is so misunderstood that those involved can't cope with it and tend to take extreme offence to my genuine attempts to communicate.

Social anxiety to the point that I have to cut my own hair because I cant cope with the hairdresser, have had bladder infections due to holding urine in because I can't cope with public toilets, have walked home late/alone at night in potentially dangerous situations because I can't cope with public transport etc.

Obsessive interests/hyperfixations to the point where they significantly affect my sleep, ability to remember to eat and use the toilet and my focus at work (yes I do work, related to an intense interest actually, but it comes with many challenges).

Tics which cause embassment (vocal tics) and physical pain (head and neck jerks). Inability to wear certain clothing because it triggers severe physical tics.

Relying on multiple apps which I have to use daily just to function, including tracking my water intake, because I constantly feel thirsty and have in the past accidentally consumed dangerous amounts of water.

I could on and on and on....these are just a few random examples that I thought of.

I hope it helps in some way to show that struggles associated with neurodivergence aren't necessarily similar to what many neurotypical people struggle with, just a bit worse, and that many of us genuinely do require significant amounts of support just to try to function.

Of course many neurotypical people have many of their own struggles. My diagnoses are simply a way of explaining my own.... in a way that is certainly helpful (to me at least) in terms of understanding.

"a friend recently where she said a parking fine should be voided if someone has ADHD because they have a reasonable excuse. "

So does the same exemption apply if an ADHD person has a crash or runs someone over because they were distracted due to their condition?

I know I'll probably get assassinated for this but...

I think there are many undiagnosed ND people. Women of a certain age, for example, who have learned to mask.

I expect this is probably why MN gets a lot of these threads. Possibly the OPs don't word the threads well (e.g., "what if someone is forgetful").

I put myself in this category- I don't think I could ever get an ND diagnosis at my age, I actually tried but my (elderly and narc) parents ticked "everything normal at childhood" boxes, so I didn't bother submitting the first part of the assessment.

What you've described is exactly what I experience, but I'm "NT". I do find it a bit frustrating at work when people say NT people can do XYZ, and I end up thinking - well no, many of us can't, and I experience the same things as you without the acknowledgement or support. It feels a bit "gaslighting" and "minimizing" to use popular phrases.