To think that it's about time islamic fundamentalism is dissected and challenged

[diddlysquatagain]

Did anyone read the very interesting article by Matthew Syed (sorry if behind a paywall) - Sunday Times: 'One thing has been holding back the Middle East for centuries':
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/middle-east-religious-fanaticism-iran-kcvh5knn3

"The Middle East was once the centre of the intellectual world. Then it went into reverse. The problem then, as now, is Islamic fundamentalism. No peace or prosperity is possible until the madrassas and other machines of indoctrination are confronted"

America in the West is heading towards a far right dictatorship under the guise of Christian nationalism.

And removing the evidence

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/17/justice-department-study-far-right-extremist-violence

By contrast, incidents of Qur’an burning, or desecration of Islamic texts, do happen in the UK, often tied to acts of Islamophobia. For example, a man was fined (later his conviction overturned) for burning a Qur’an outside the Turkish consulate in London. The Guardian. He was not murdered, you will be the first to agree I think.

Not murdered but he was attacked with a knife

so someone retaliated to him for burning a Qur'an. Of course I do not condone this but

does that compare with the attacks detailed in the above data on Muslims for simply existing?

Despite my strong dislike of Islam, I would never condone any attack on Muslims. People who do that should be condemned
and the full force of (British not Sharia) law applied.

Where was sharia law applied?

Actually, Jewish people are most disproportionately represented as victims in hate crime statistics. 33% of hate crimes were against Jews, who comprise just 0.5% of the UK population. It shouldn’t be a race to the bottom (no one should experience a hate crime) but that figure is important context in this debate.

I agree with you

I condemn all violence against Muslims. There is no excuse for it, and it has no place in our society. I have issues with many aspect of much Islamic culture in the country, not individual Muslims.

As for fundamentalist Islam, I accept there are many Muslims who aren’t fundamentalists, and have assimilated and integrated well into British society. My issues isn’t with Muslims per se, it’s the Islamic culture that many of them belong to and see as their identify over and above being British.

The following survey indicates the extent of beliefs most would consider fundamentalist within Islam. And by fundamentalist, I mean those with hardline views strongly at odds with today’s mainstream British culture, not a would-be suicide bomber.

henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/HJS-Deck-200324-Final.pdf

For instance, only one in four believe Hamas committed murder and rape on 7th October, or believe that Israel has the right even to exist! That’s indicative of some pretty pervasive fundamentalism and even extremism, even if there are many Muslims would disagree with that viewpoint.

I was just making the point that we should continue to operate under UK law…given that nearly 1/3 of UK Muslims believe it would be highly or somewhat desirable to implement Sharia Law here (see linked survey)…. that’s well over 1 million people.

Agreed but how does that impact the UK?

Because you have a significant and growing portion of the population whose allegiance is to Islam not the UK, and who are not integrated into wider British society as much of prevailing Islamic culture is largely incompatible with British culture.

There is a real risk of sectarian division developing in the UK as a result… And sectarian division leads to bad things in a society- just look at Northern Ireland or Lebanon.

If we’re talking about poll influence, it’s worth keeping the numbers straight. Muslims make up about 5–6% of the UK population, while Christians make up nearly 40%.

So even if every single Muslim respondent said they prefer Sharia law or opposed abortion (which isn’t true), they wouldn’t have anywhere near the numbers to “sway” national polls.

In reality, the overwhelming majority of votes in those polls — including socially conservative positions like opposing abortion — statistically come from people who identify as Christian, not Muslim.

If we’re going to talk about poll outcomes, we should base it on maths.

yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/47568-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-abortion-in-2023

All of 4% ?

Yes, I accept that Muslims are 6% of the population, and not close to a majority. I appreciate its alarmist to say we’re on the verge of having Sharia Law imposed across the UK.

However, there are sufficient numbers, especially in our large cities, that the influence of the Islamic community isn’t negligible. Having multi-million strong enclaves of people who do not integrate with the rest of the country in a meaningful way, and whose culture is strikingly incompatible with the rest of UK society isn’t healthy and needs addressing.

We need to work on breaking down those barriers and take steps to promote integration if we are to avoid a balkanisation of this country into competing factions that have more allegiance to each other than the country at large.

Ignoring this and crying “racist” whenever someone raises concerns is enabling the UK’s decline into a factional unstable powder keg.

It’s irresponsible and stupid - your children won’t forgive you for allowing the disintegration of British society because you were too blind to see what’s happening.

pigeonpoodle

HenryJacksonSociety is a right wing think tank known to push anti Muslim agenda and under scrutiny for failing to disclose its funders.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/30/rightwing-thinktank-pulls-funds-commons-groups-disclosure-rules

Having multi-million strong enclaves of people who do not integrate with the rest of the country in a meaningful way, and whose culture is strikingly incompatible with the rest of UK society isn’t healthy and needs addressing

Genuine question, where exactly are these multi-million strong enclaves of people who don't integrate?

PP should have put thousands. We don’t have mega cities in the UK let alone mega-enclaves.

But their point still stands. It is worrying that some people segregate themselves. And the bottom line is, it only takes a few individuals to do a lot of damage, if they choose to. We definitely do need to do a better job at encouraging integration into society.

I understand we are a liberal country etc etc but I do think we need to set standards of behaviour for all citizens, regardless of religion or culture. No segregation of the sexes, no enforced isolation for women, no arranged or forced marriages, no medical procedures on children, boys and girls, full English speakers required, to enable integration and employment, no cousin marriages. No education in religious schools, or home schooling, and most controversially, but it shouldn't really be, no face coverings or full Islamic dress.

Too far??

I meant there were enclaves that totalled n the millions, not that there were individuals enclaves of millions. For instance, 15% of Londoners are Muslims totalling 1.3 million rising to 40% in many of its eastern boroughs. Many do integrate, but hundreds of thousands don’t and operate in bubbles
divorced from the mainstream. That’s not healthy for society.

I broadly agree, though wouldn’t go so far as mandate clothing styles… That would be unnecessarily oppressive and illiberal.

This is frightening. I seem to recall other similar surveys and was struck with the high percentage that had these beliefs!

I get so frustrated with some posters on here continuing with 'what about this extreme group or that'. We're not discussing those, we're discussing fundamental Islam on this thread which has been allowed to become widespread in this country to a dangerous level.

Our law, our values around freedom of speech, equality, women's rights should absolutely trump religious practices which are not only medieval but barbaric.

Their polling identifies inconvenient truths about the views of Muslims.

I can see why many on the Left wouldn’t want those known and understood as it doesn’t help their agenda. Attempting to smear something as “right-wing” doesn’t work any more.

I never called you racist. What I’m saying is your picture of “Islamic influence” doesn’t match reality.

I grew up in a town that’s about 33% Muslim. I’m not worried, because day-to-day life there looks like Britain everywhere else: people working, paying mortgages, supporting the same football teams, arguing about schools and bin collections. British society isn’t disintegrating — unless you mean the tiny but noisy crowd of right-wing flag-hangers and Islamophobes who keep trying to pit neighbours against each other. That is damaging.

Your argument falls apart on the basics:

Numbers: Muslims are ~6% of the UK. That’s nowhere near enough to “sway” national policy or impose anything on anyone. Most socially conservative votes in any poll will naturally come from the much larger Christian population, simply because of scale.

“Enclaves” claim: There aren’t “multi-million strong enclaves” sealed off from the country. Muslims live across dozens of towns and cities, mixed in with everyone else. Concentrations in some areas reflect housing and work patterns, not a refusal to integrate.

Compatibility trope: British law is supreme. Faith councils/arbitration bodies are voluntary and cannot override UK law. People can be devout and fully part of British civic life — they serve in the NHS, armed forces, councils, unions, schools, and Parliament.

Allegiance smear: The idea that Muslims have “more allegiance” to each other than to the country is an accusation without evidence. My lived reality is shared allegiance to the same streets, services and futures.

“Powder keg” rhetoric: That’s just fear-talk. The real risks to social cohesion are inequality, housing shortages, underfunded services, and those who constantly tell Britons to fear their neighbours.

If we want more mixing and trust (and I do), we should back the things that actually build it: good schools, youth clubs, safe streets, decent jobs, English-language provision where needed, and fair treatment for everyone. Blaming 6% of the country for everything isn’t a solution

@awkwardasfuck you have a very rosy view of many towns/cities across Britain. Have you not been to Bradford, say?

The last general election indicated that quite a few traditional Labour seats were in peril. Four “Muslim interest” MPs gained seats. At the next ge estimates are 30+ Muslim-interest MPs (note: I say Muslim-interest MPs, not MPs who happen to be Muslim).

Given that one of these MPs has been outspoken on not just Gaza but keeping cousin marriage and not pursuing grooming gangs, as well as wanting UK govt funding for a new Pakistan airport, I’d say that if we had 30 of him our democratic process might be getting wobbly, to say the least.