To send my academic child to a below average comp?

[Doncasterjan]

Due to various factors (change in catchment areas, lots of newbuild developments etc) it looks like the only secondary school my DD will get in to is our local comp. It's a big school, 9 form entry, with below average progress 8 and less than 40% Maths and English at level 4. My daughter is very academic and quiet and I'm really worried I've let her down.

We could look to move, but it's obviously a lot of disruption and upheaval (I also have a younger DD). Can't afford private.

What would you do? If we send her to the local school, what can we do to best support her education?

One of my friends went to a below average school and said he got heaps of opportunities because he was big fish in a small pond…he probably wouldn’t have got the opportunities in a school with heaps of academic kids at the same level as him.

Absolutely.

We have friends and cousins at sought after state schools and at a super selective grammar and they are envious of all the opportunities mine have had. At their schools everything is oversubscribed and there's always someone better than you who gets to be on the team/take part. At the grammar they cant do dofe without goong through a rigorous application process and there's nowhere near enough spaces for all those who apply. My dc have been able to do theirs as a matter of course.

I am in Scotland so a different setup but I’ve chosen the same. My daughter is in s2 at the high school a 5 minute walk away. It wins no awards and she is navigating some difficult situations at times but she’s thriving. She has local friends and loves her teachers and really enjoys finding her little niche.

I would encourage lots of other activities and interests - lunchtime clubs etc. My daughter is involved in eco club and flutes and the school musical and has found a little group of like minded children. She dances almost every evening and we have a busy life outside of school too.

At her school, over half the children finish in s4 and then another half in s5 so for s6 it’s just the most academically motivated children and it’s apparently an amazing year. They had a list of destinations for the children who graduated last year and it’s a full gamut of options. I think it’s brilliant how they encourage lots of different futures (the children who leave earlier are often going into an apprenticeship or college course which is great too!). My daughter has anxiety and I think a more high pressured environment wouldn’t have been the best call for her now that I’m watching it all happening.

I think it’s worth giving it a shot and seeing how it goes in reality before panicking. We figured we’d give it a year and then if we really had to make a change, we’d figure it out. And we’ve been so pleasantly surprised.

Don’t forget if she travels miles to another school she won’t have any local pals, and will feel a bit of an outsider. Speaking from experience, I traveled to the next town to a grammar school which didn’t work out, we were seen as outsiders and often ignored by the teachers. I went to uni when I was older and it all worked out, but I would have loved to go to the local comp which was quite small and fine.

However, if the local comp behaviour is bad and it’s rough, you’ll have to move.

My dds went to the local comp. Shortly after dd1 started it got a bad Ofsted review and kids were leaving in droves, as were teachers. There was a tough couple of years but the school has really turned around.

My dd1 is academic and now at uni. Dd2 is the opposite and I don't think will get any GCSEs. Honestly, you would think the two had attended different schools. Dd1's group of friends are all at Russell GP unis or Oxbridge; they enjoyed school and never got bullied.

Dd2 has always been in the bottom sets with mostly boys and a lot of disruptive behaviour. Her friends are from troubled backgrounds and frequently excluded. The pastoral care has been excellent but Ive sometimes wondered if the main goal on the academic side is just to contain them.

So I think you need to worry less about overall results and focus on the offer for academic kids. Our bad Ofsted report notably commented that the school worked well for high achieving children but totally failed the least able. I think lots of the parents who withdrew their kids just reacted to the overall score and didnt read the small print. So strongly recommend you read the small print - talk to your dd's current teachers, find parents of academic children already at the secondary etc.

Mine was in a very academic well-regarded school and due to mental health issues really struggled (not academically but school put an extraordinary amount of pressure which added to her issues). She already put immense pressure on herself so being told ‘an A isn’t good enough, you must get an A*’ was creating a toxic blend with her own perfectionism.

I ended up taking her out in year 10 and putting her in a school with a terrible academic record that had just been put in special measures. Best thing I did, mental health improved due to reduced expectations. She came out with 9 As and A* and was in the local paper for her outstanding results.

I went to a shite comp. Got straight As plus a B. So outwardly I look like a success story.

But it was really really hard. Not the learning, but the culture of mediocrity. Being surrounded by peers who didn’t want to learn and couldn’t have cared less. Being constantly surrounded by a culture of being clever being uncool. Disrespecting teachers and misbehaving being entertaining and funny.

It was a long unhappy 5 years. So support with tutoring and extra curricular if you can. But more importantly watch out for their happiness and their mental health. Being trapped in that sort of shit show with no way out is an awful way to spend your teen years. I’m almost 50 and it’s never left me.

Only read some of the thread but likely to go against the grain and say do everything you can to avoid this school. Whilst some bright children may do perfectly well in a below average they may not and have a hellish time there.
I say that as a child whose parents didn't let me go to the local comp for a variety of reasons. (Having worked there several years later I'm very grateful!)
I'm also in the position of having a bright daughter and in the catchment area of a dire school. We have applied to a couple of schools out of catchment and will home school if she doesn't get in. She would be put on a waiting list....
Not an ideal set up and all for 'community' education where everyone goes to their local school and you have more of a mix of abilities but often that's not the reality, so we have to do what's best for our own children.

To be fair I think the culture of being clever as uncool was very 90s. Definitely had it my comp. However I have seen zero evidence of this at any of the state schools I have had experience of in last 10 years or so. Quite the opposite.

Exactly.

I have friends who are teachers who say thay the days of underperforming teachers and falling standards are behind us as there's just no way of hiding that stuff now. Everything is monitored and data driven and publicly available.

My dc are not part of the cool crowd but they are well liked, have nice friends and do not feel they have to hide their hard work or good grades at all. There are regular awards ceremonies, students of the week, praise points and inter house competitions etc - all of which allow them to use their abilities and be recognised and rewarded for them. They've not ever been picked on for receiving recognition.

In GCSE years, even the toughest of kids recognise their options are seriously limited without basic passes.

I couldn't agree more!!

There is often complete vitriol for private schools, however, excellent state schools in MC areas with expensive houses are way more prevalent than private schools.

My DN goes to an incredible state school in Cheltenham but a 3 bed terrace will cost you £800k. If we went with the same equivalent house we have, it would be £1.5m easily.

We have DDs at private school, but the amount we pay on school fees would still be less than the amount we would have to add to our mortgage to buy in the catchment to this school.

I’d check 2 things:

1. what is discipline/ behaviour like? Is it unlikely child will have to try to work while scared all the time of violent or threatening kids or that their learning will be subject to constant disruption?
2. do they stream / divide for state exam years by ability/ aptitude? If the answer to the above isn’t yes, I would move to source better school options.

I agree.

This is partly why I so frustrated with DC old secondary. It was a school that was rebuilt and new head who did the slow hard slog of improvements and really got the exam results up over years - and not just in the kids with good backgrounds - and by time we movd here had a solid record.

Poor Inspections focues on bottom students who imprived but too slow for them lead to HT, SLT and teachers leaving exam results for all dropped and dropped - they struggled to get governors - they couldn't get a HT had to open process twice and languishing in special meassures for years.

The exam results are now very poor - but the narrative is you can't expect more from kids from that background despite fact that's improved in last few years due to house prices in surrounding areas - and schools back in it place at bottom of local secondaries it escaped for a decade.

It did stabilised between DS and DD2 exam years - though they focus and resoruces were on younger year groups in DD2 last few years. You now look at it and think if in top third they'd likely be okay.

DC went to a poor secondary not as bad as DC though much worse drug problem did okay GCSE left and did really well A-level - I was in the good state secondary and was miserable though did okay acadmically - our kids got though a terrible school did okay to really good academically and managed socially but was a less good experience than we'd hoped for - they all counted down to leaving after GCSE - and did require more hard work from them and us.

Having thought about this some more, I think it really depends on a realistic assessment of what the atmosphere and ethos of the school is like, and on the personalities of both DDs (because choosing for older DD is likely to lead to younger DD going to the same school). As I said above, I went to a rough school but it wasn't especially violent or scary. However, it was profoundly unaspirational with lots of behaviour problems. And even with streaming for key subjects like maths and English, and 10 classes in each year group, there wasn't scope to stream for GCSE options. You would have needed to be very self-motivated to do well in e.g. GCSE German, where only two children in a class of 25ish got an A* *star-C grade. The other kids didn't work at all, so they didn't take anything in - behaviour was mostly okay because they liked the teacher, but it was as though he had to start from scratch pretty much every lesson, and everyone got Fs and Gs in the exam, apart from one A star and one B. A very highly motivated child with an aptitude for languages and a teacher with time to support outside of class time would do well anyway; a clever child who was more easily influenced by peer pressure would probably not.

choosing for older DD is likely to lead to younger DD going to the same school

This is a very good point. You have two DC to consider - even if you reckon your eldest would be ok as she is bright/studious etc - your younger one may not be the same? If you think you might need to move anyway for younger child then do it now and benefit both.

Bollocks. In a poor school with lots of disruption, bullying, etc., even the brightest pupil will struggle.

But @Creamkettle said average not poor.

The OP is talking about a school with a sixth form which means the teachers can teach to that level and that there's a significant number of pupils who do and will stay on post 16 from the OPs daughter's cohort.

OP also states there are lots of clubs, trips, activities and residential. These only happen in schools with engaged, organised teachers who are prepared to go above and beyond and give up their time to it. Also they only go ahead where there are enough families with the finances and will to support them.

This is not some apocalyptic zoo.

I went to an "average" comp with a sixth form and despite leaving primary as an A* pupil, I left with nothing, after five years of serious/intense bullying which led me to self harm, truancy and suicidal thoughts. I was glad to be out of that hell hole. I picked myself up once I'd left, did exams via self study/evening classes, got A levels, then went onto chartered accountancy exams again self study and evening classes, finally qualifying as a chartered accountant. That's why I say bollocks to the idea that a "bright child will do well anywhere". No they bloody well won't if they're bullied daily, the teachers don't give a crap about it, etc.

My DH says exactly the same about his crap comp years. Different town, different school, different area, but his "story" is virtually identical to mine. He likewise was near top of his class at primary. Again, an "average" comp with a sixth form, but likewise bullying, absent teachers meaning lots of supply/cover teaching, left at 16 with barely any qualifications, but he turned it around at college, got distinctions and merits in his diplomas, etc., and likewise went onto get a profession involving professional exams studied by evening classes/self study etc.

Our joint experiences are why there was no way on earth we'd send our son to a "average" comp, and ensured that he went to the best state school locally possible. Yes "some" kids will do well at even average comps, some do well at "poor" comps, but it's a lottery, depends on who are your class mates (we can't choose after all). If you end up in forms/classes with the worst cases of disruption and bullying, you're not going to perform to the best of your ability!

I'm very sorry that happened to you but I don't think you're answering the OP specific queries.

FWIW I know of friend's dc who have gone to super selective grammars and become school refusers due to bullying on the bus. And colleague's daughter with a severe eating disorder who has always gone to private schools but now can't take her gcses. My DH parents decided they were religious for school entry purposes and sent him to a better performing faith school rather than a local comp. He was bullied so badly it still affects him now.

My dc go/went to an RI comp, have experienced no bullying and got and/or are predicted top grades. I have no regrets about not moving at great expense or creating stress and exhaustion by sending them miles away.

Going to a great school doesn't guarantee amazing grades or happy kids, going to a less well thought of school doesn't automatically mean misery and low marks. Much is due to chance such as who they're there with and who the staff are and a vast amount is down to their personalities and the support you can offer them.

@Badbadbunny bullying can happen in any school. The average one my two went to came down on it incredibly hard when it happened to them; quick, tough, decisive. Meanwhile the leafy academic high flying school in the next town failed completely on tackling bullying.

bright child will do well anywhere

I got fed up of hearing that - even though DH and kids do kind of prove it - bright kids with home support will still do well - or well enough to move to next stage.

But it does depend on why it's a bad school and how bad is bad.

Our kids acadmcially were worst impacted by teacher turn over and poor hand overs - though also think both our daughters would have reponded to more acadmic competition. They got most annoyed frustrated at low level disruption and the huge loss of teaching time that they often had to make up at home with us and lack of general control by SLT.

We couldn't afford a house in best school catchment and commute was impossible for DH work nor could we afford private - so we were left with the rest. I do kick myslef because while school just below theirs when we looked also had a bad inspection it bounced back quicker as more of the staff stayed so younger kids would have had less disruption at least.

I had people on here and in RL say it would all be fine then when we hit issues insited if we loved our DC we'd have sent them to a better school somehow. The older two are doing well at universities and younger one started A-level at college so hasn't stopped them - most of there even less academic freinds are on paths they are happy with though may have at more options at a better school.

I'd move to a different area.

I was a very academic primary school child - well behaved, studious, liked getting good marks, proud of my achievements etc. By age 16 I was lazy, more interested in boys than studying, keen to follow the crowd, trying to look disinterested - basically I went from an A grade to a C grade student. Luckily for me I had a full scholarship at a strict private school with tiny classes and high expectations, so even with my crap attitude I got decent O levels. By the time I did A levels I'd improved my attitude and did very well.

But I have no doubt that if I'd gone to the local comp (like my brother did - just as clever as me and came out with almost no qualifications at all), I'd have messed around in lessons, bunked off school, avoided looking clever, strived for mediocrity in order to look cool.

My parents would never in a million years have imagined that their diligent bright 10 year old would morph into such a teen horror, and if it wasn't for my academic school I'd have achieved far less than I eventually did.

And the thing to remember too, even if a pupil is keen and motivated, and not influenced by other pupils, if every lesson is basically an exercise in crowd control, they won't learn much. And most lessons aren't done in sets at first, so there are usually no "special top sets" for a year or 2. My kids went to the local comp (a good one), and the main reason they both wanted to stay in the top sets was because by set 3 apparently everyone just pissed around.

I'd move to a different area.

This seems to be a common but also mad suggestion.

Is there any evidence that moving areas for a school perceived to be better outweighs the financial, practical and social upheaval of moving?

I agree that those factors are important, but good tutoring certainly helps. DH and I and our home meet all those points. I am an academic with a PhD. But my DS1 passed English Language GCSE and significantly improved his performance in one A Level because of two great tutors.