To send my academic child to a below average comp?

[Doncasterjan]

Due to various factors (change in catchment areas, lots of newbuild developments etc) it looks like the only secondary school my DD will get in to is our local comp. It's a big school, 9 form entry, with below average progress 8 and less than 40% Maths and English at level 4. My daughter is very academic and quiet and I'm really worried I've let her down.

We could look to move, but it's obviously a lot of disruption and upheaval (I also have a younger DD). Can't afford private.

What would you do? If we send her to the local school, what can we do to best support her education?

Does the comp have top performance sets and send some kids to top unis?
If they a true comp catering for all levels then top performance and those at different levels will do OK

OP has said that moving to a different area, or paying for private education isn’t possible, so it’s pointless to suggest moving, unless it would be an easy option and that’s not the case these days.

So, books, experiences, tutors, encouragement, strong work ethic from parents, books, top sets, making sure school is prioritised are all important.

Do the school set? (None of the comps near us do as it's out of fashion.) If they do, then she will have a peer group in her class who are on track to do well and this should also allow the teacher to focus on them and not spend the whole lesson going over the basics that are needed to scrape a pass. If they don't set, or only set for Maths, I'd be more worried as it would mean that in every class there would be 60% who are not on track to get a 4, and it's very hard for a teacher to stretch the more able when they really need to try to get as many over the line.

If you drill down into the data on the goverment website, what is the progress 8 for those who are higher attainers when coming into the school in Y7? If it is negative, that is a worry, as it suggests they are letting down the brighter kids.

Realistically your only options are either send her to the school and see how it goes, and be prepared to support her with tutoring, or move house.

I think they set from GCSE onwards. It's a true comp so no kids getting creamed off into grammar, but lots of private schools in the area and the nicer part of town is in catchment for a better school.

Go and visit. Our "average state comp" has an Oxbridge programme. It sets upon entry in Year 7. I visited on an open evening and met the nerdiest group of kids and a few teachers hanging out. It was inspiring. 5-10 kids a year to Oxbridge.

For the record our local private sent 2-3 last year. Annual fee £30k.

Compared with a more traditionally thought of state secondary. Doesn't set. Because that benefits the middle 50%. They depend on the top 25% to bring them up. No thanks. 2-3 to Oxbridge annually.

Oxbridge isn't the be and end all obviously but shows you need to drill down beyond Progress 8 and look at who and which kids are there.

Progress 8 for high achievers is average (so better than the overall progress 8 which is negative).

Definitely thinking we give it a go and see how we get on. Maybe will be easier to get a place at a better school as an in-year transfer if things are going badly?

I don't think any Oxbridge looking at the data for last few years! They do have a sixth form, but seems like most kids end up at the less well regarded unis.

I wouldn't worry about sixth form and leavers' destinations too much, because it is quite easy to move at that stage (and so if there's a nicer school elsewhere in town, it's possible the higher achievers move there). Certainly where we are, you can't get into the well-regarded comp in Y7 unless you live less than a mile from it, but it's easy to get in for Year 12. So a) she will have options then, and b) the Y13 performance may not reflect anything about further down the school.

you really need to be on top of the friendships though, as teens are heavily influenced by their peers.
as it has been said on a similar post "their tribe shapes their vibe".
and due to peer influence not all academically able children will reach their full potential if distracted and sidelined by antisocial behavior.

I think in not so great schools, the most academic get attention and can do well, and the least academic get a lot of attention. I think the children who fall in the middle are often overlooked.

I chose to send my children to the local catchment area comp, even though is was considered one of the worst schools in the city. I wanted them to be rooted in the local community, to feel they belonged somewhere, and to go to school with the other kids who lived on our street. We made the decision to make up for the weaknesses of the school at home. We organised music lessons, scouts and guides etc, and had a house full of books. We did educational stuff at weekends and holidays - museums, theatres, art galleries etc. They did sport summer camps and lots of travel. All did very well academically, and all have professional jobs as adults. What still pleases me is that they still value their roots, have strong friendships with old school friends, and are very aware of their privilege. If your home life is rich and develops their intellect and curiosity, the quality of the school is less crucial.

The bright kids who want to learn will find each other even if they are only 10% of the school. The obnoxious "don't wanna be there" brigade will find each other and bum along doing as little as possible for 4 years whilst the "top swots" crack on and speed ahead.

@Doncasterjan you say in your top post that your daughter is very academic - is there any possibility she could qualify for a local independent school on a scholarship based on brains and her aptitude etc?

When I was a child under 12 years old my parents were advised that my younger brother was academically gifted and that he would get into a private school on a scholarship if they (parents) wanted to pursue it. (My parents were borderline poor so they would have financially qualified for various bursaries and scholarships fir brain box brother.)

However .......

My parents decided against doing that because they didn't want to appear to be choosing unfairly for the brother. I was an average kid, and would not have passed 11 plus or any scholarships.

So my parents decided to send both me and brain box brother to the same local comp, in order to not split us up, to avoid favouring him, etc ..... and possibly also because it made it easier logistically to only have to do one school run to the same school etc.

My brother went thru the same comp school as me, met completely different set of friends, and got much higher grades and results due to his inherent aptitude for learning. He got:
10 x GCSES all A and A* grade
4 x A Levels
1 x AS Level

He went to uni and got a double first in Physics and Computer Science (not an Oxbridge type uni - a fairly average uni) but, again, he got a double first Science degree from "any old bog standard" uni - and probably achieved it with more ease and less pressure due to it not being a top university.

I got 5 x average grade O Levels, 2 x secretarial certificates and an office job at age 17. I never did have the brains or aptitude.

We both fared as well as we could have done in the comprehensive system.

Just move OP, you have time. It’s relevant for your next child too. Fewer bursaries now what with VAT added to fees, so independents can’t assist bright children as much as they used to.

I haven't looked into it but don't imagine we'd quality for a scholarship. My child is bright and academic, but I wouldn't say she's "gifted" necessarily. And our household income is decent (just not decent enough for fees!)

A few friends dc didn’t get into the “desirable” single sex comps and went to the mixed bog standard one. They have absolutely thrived great results nice friends and v supportive teachers who really supported them.

Sorry but I don’t believe the ‘a bright child will do very well anywhere’ line that’s often trotted out on here. If they are not being taught a GCSE syllabus properly, for example - or if disruptive kids mess up lesson time - their results won’t be as good as they would be in a better school.

It’s good to hear that there are those that do brilliantly despite the odds, but they are the exceptions. Also bear in mind that the posters talking about their own experience 15plus years ago - unfortunately schools have got worse, and getting into Oxbridge etc has become harder.

Sorry to sound negative OP, but in your situation I would be trying to move.

Another alternative @Doncasterjan is to took at some of the online schools. My son went to one during the pandemic and we were really impressed. It would only work for a self motivated child but it was good

I had a similar dilemma with my DS. I met with the Head twice before we decided to risk the local school, because I wanted to know what plans they had for bright children, and how they stop them just 'coasting' along. His answers satisfied me (basically, the school wants kids to do well as it looks good for them, so the brightest kids are pushed quite hard).

It was 100% the correct decision, it meant he had local friends so could socialize with them without needing transport... And he got mainly 9s in his GCSEs!

@ViciousCurrentBun He did really well, all top grades at GCSE and A level and secured a place on a fully funded degree apprenticeship. Just graduated 1st class honours, no student debt and now on almost 40k PA at 24.

Well done your DS! Degree apprenticeships are a great idea, more companies should consider offering them.

I went to a terrible comprehensive school, as did my best friend. We did really well because we were self-motivated and worked hard. We used to joke that we did most of our work outside the classroom because the disruption was so bad!

There is less academic and there is not having the basic building blocks needed for adult life.

less than 40% Maths and English at level 4.

I would / could not in good conscience send an academically able child to a school with these results in core subjects like maths and english.

I would keep an open mind but this is a possibility. I went to a terrible school, way lower GCSE pass rates than that, and although I studied and got top gcses it was pretty miserable standing out so much. I moved for sixth form. I had friends but it's much nicer having others around at a similar academic attainment level and higher, not being an outlier.

A few things.
. Definitely check the progress for those of higher previous attainment.
. You can put other schools above this one on your preference list, you may be lucky. Just make sure this one is on the list somewhere.
. You can go on waiting lists. and a space may come up at some point.
. You can appeal. The grounds for appeal are much wider at Secondary than at infants. You can't appeal on academic results, but you can on extra curriculars for example. e.g Preferred school has an orchestra, your DD plays the clarinet, offered school does not have orchestra.
. The Secondary Education board here on MN can be helpful.

Your daughter sounds like me at that age. I went to the below average comp and honestly, it crushed me. The focus on academics is one thing (sure you can tutor), but the main one is cohort. Places with low aspirations breed low aspiration and kids with high aspirations and ambitions in these environments are a target for bullies. I got great grades (studied hard) but left my school with a lifelong eating disorder, anxiety, depression and all manner of issues. I left my hometown at 18 and never looked back. I still have issues with my parents who I felt ignored my pleas to not go to that school because the other options were too complicated.

I would beg you to consider other options for your daughter’s sake.

You could move. Or you could look at what your legal options could be to request your daughter attends a school out of catchment. Work out what the best school you think would be perfect for her and figure out if by any earthly means she could get in there… I’m not au fait with what people do these days but it can’t be a case of like it or lump it if the only school in catchment is just not right for the child?

I’m sorry but you sound like my parents here.

As someone who myself has moved heaven and earth to get my kid into the right school (different issue, SEN) and sold my house, paid lawyers, called every single person in the local authority, campaigned, engaged in a 2 year fight… I can say from my own experience there are so many things you can do. So don’t mix up can’t with don’t want to.

So you could move. But you don’t want to. No judgement, but you need to be honest with yourself. You’re asking on mumsnet if it’ll be fine (maybe you want reassurance it’ll be fine? It might be. Or it might not be. I wouldn’t take the risk but we’re all different) and where people are saying it won’t be ok you’re saying you don’t have a choice. I mean fair enough if that’s where your head is at.

Other than moving you could explore and get advice on your legal options to get an out of catchment placement. These do exist. I am not a lawyer but there will be a way to make a case that school A is not a fit and therefore your child should go to school B. You need to find the loopholes.

it doesn’t feel like you’ve even exhausted the second option yet?