To send my academic child to a below average comp?

[Doncasterjan]

Due to various factors (change in catchment areas, lots of newbuild developments etc) it looks like the only secondary school my DD will get in to is our local comp. It's a big school, 9 form entry, with below average progress 8 and less than 40% Maths and English at level 4. My daughter is very academic and quiet and I'm really worried I've let her down.

We could look to move, but it's obviously a lot of disruption and upheaval (I also have a younger DD). Can't afford private.

What would you do? If we send her to the local school, what can we do to best support her education?

Agree entirely with these two questions

Cohort is very important, your DD will be influenced by her peers unless she is very unusual, so may coast if everyone around her is getting lower marks. Also if she is academic the pace of learning may be quite slow and boring for her in a mixed ability set. So being in an academic set would be important. If they don’t set or don’t set for most subjects then that would worry me tbh.

And behaviour… read some of the threads by teachers on here about behaviour in secondary schools. It isn’t like that in all schools but if this school is one of the ones with behaviour issues then I would run a mile. How can you tell? If it’s undersubscribed (has fewer kids than its PAN) it probably has serious issues.

I don’t agree with the MN mantra of “a bright child will do well anywhere”. Not if they’re in class with kids who are disruptive and don’t want to learn. Not if they are scared to look too academic in case of bullying. Not if the teachers are spending their whole time on kids who find learning very hard or who are misbehaving.

oh and just to add

Please do NOT rely on the appeal route (or “legal” as some pp are calling it). Most admissions appeals fail. If the school you want is full to bursting (and many good secondary schools are right now) then you would really have to make an exceptional case for why your child needs that school in order to get a place on appeal. It absolutely won’t be enough that she is academic, or shy.

It depends on two things:

1. how self motivated is your child
2. is there a culture within the school that being bright is ‘bad’ which will mean your child is bullied if they shine academically

@minipie i agree with everything you have written here. It’s impossible to predict how things will turn out for the OP’s dc.

I was this child too - I went to a terrible school and got 10 A*s at GCSE, as well as lots of support from teachers, but I was very socially isolated. The overall attitude of other pupils was that it was pointless and very uncool to try hard and try and achieve anything at school. If anything, I was lucky that I was so unusual no-one even bothered bullying me. The school was massive but had a tiny sixth form cohort which tended to recruit along social class lines, not on purpose, but overall it was a very working class school with a small minority of middle-class-but-not-at-private-school kids who were the ones whose parents expected them to do A-levels and go to university. I left after GCSEs and went to a sixth form college in another town where everyone knew what they were there for and did actual work.

I had a much younger sister and by the time she was finishing primary, my parents knew more about schools and could afford to move, so they moved to a town with a good secondary school, with strong encouragement from me.

Please also bear in mind that if an area has a clearly “good” comprehensive school and a “not good” comprehensive school, then most of the parents who are serious about education, and have the means, will have ensured they live in the catchment of the “good” school.

So the intakes of each school will not be truly comprehensive. The “good” school catchment will contain a disproportionate amount of very invested and/or better off families and the less good school catchment will have a disproportionate amount of families who either don’t care or can’t afford to move.

True comprehensive is frankly a myth these days when people are so strategic about school places.

Or get bored and left behind because no one cares about more than avarage. It does happen for bright children in state school.

Definitely go on compare schools website and filter results by prior attainment. Look at was the high achievers are attaining at GCSE/progress score.

Although I didn’t really want my son at the local ‘secondary modern’ if he didn’t pass the grammar, my plan B was partly based on if high achieving kids were still doing well. There was a stark difference between two schools we could have gotten into. The other I felt was not helping previous high achievers meet their potential.

Happy for you to DM me if you need me to show you how to do this.

I would try to find a way to move, personally. I moved dd because she was a ‘quiet middle.’ Like a pp’s experience, her school focussed on ‘bringing up’ the less able, and there was little interest in stretching the more academic children. At that school, dd never shone. Her performance was average, and the teachers’ attitudes were always ‘she’s doing enough.’

I moved her, because I felt she would be more engaged elsewhere. To my surprise, she got an academic scholarship to a selective independent school and the transformation was immediate. She was noticed, nurtured, and thrived. In an environment where the children wanted to learn and work hard, she flew. She is doing her GCSEs this year, predicted straight 9s, and on the Oxbridge track. I had no idea she was this academic, and I do not believe that she would be doing so well if left bumbling along at the local comp.

Yes, it wasn't true for me. I was very curious as a child and loved learning and participating, and was made to feel that I was being weird or showing off. I remember my teacher saying 'I want someone to put their hand up - NOT SteakBakes.' I learned to keep quiet and not excel or stand out or get overly enthusiastic, because it got more of a sigh and eye roll than a positive response.

I pretty much checked out of school and was getting a C average until I managed to switch to a specialised private school. Suddenly the teachers were interested and invested in their subjects, the other students wanted to learn, and everything that I had tried to hide because it was 'weird' or I was trying to 'show off' was celebrated and pushed further. I went from C's to A*'s in a year.

So I definitely don't think that a bright child will do well anywhere. In fact, many bright children are also very sensitive, and if they are in an environment where they are dissuaded from letting their strengths shine, they will not achieve their full potential.

If I have understood correctly, OP has said that progress 8 scores for this school are neutral for the highest achievers and negative for the lower. That’s really not good.

This is correct.

Thank you for the feedback, I'm taking it all on board. There's a wide range of responses, which basically sum up my mixed thoughts!

Do we give the school a chance? It's hard to say how terrible it is without first hand experience. The results look low, but the school itself looks like there's a lot going on in terms of extra curriculars, school trips, etc. There's a wide range of options offered, including things like further maths. There's a sixth form. Kids get in to Russell group unis (Although admittedly doesn't look like many).

Yes we could move, but it will mean a lot of expense and upheaval for both children. But absolutely haven't ruled it out.

I would ask myself... is my child likely to be happy at this school and to find a cohort of like-minded children with whom she stands a good chance of making friends?

If I could answer that question yes, the academic achievement/performance of the school would be much less important for me.

A bright child can do well in a poor school with mediocre teaching without it impacting their life chances, especially if you can tutor and offer extracurricular opportunities to fill any gaps. But what will have a long-term effect is being miserable and socially isolated during their formative years.

I would not leave my child in a school where they were unhappy and I would have a plan B (put on every waiting-list going etc.) if that is likely to be the case.

Op... from your user name are you in Doncaster?

Yes would absolutely be ready to move my child by any means if she starts and doesn't settle well. I've heard it's usually easier to move in year? I will keep her on the waiting list for the more popular school in town.

Now that catchment in our town have changed, and with a lot of middle class, new build estates, I'm hoping things might start to improve in the school? Although maybe wishful thinking.

Not anymore! Originally but now down in south east.

My advice about schools in Doncaster will be irrelevant then.

But generally... the academic quieter kids seem to congregate together and support each other.

I had no idea 9 form entry schools existed! How big do they go?

I wouldn’t count on an in year move unless you are just out of catchment and therefore will be high up on the waiting list. There will be other families like you who didn’t quite make it into the better school and will be waiting to snap up any in year spaces. And there might not be any in year spaces 🤷‍♀️ it all depends on someone leaving.

What year is your DD in now? Could you actually move in time for school applications? If she’s in year 6 it may be a bit late already (depends on that school’s specific admission rules about late address changes).

One not far from us is 13 form entry.

Most are between 6 and 9 though.

Things really open up in-year around here, as lots of parents move house, change schools and quite often move their DC to private just for 3 years (9-11).

Would it be feasible for you to move your DD to private for just 2-3 years as you say you have a decent income?

Might be worth having that in the back pocket.

Thanks Minipie, I didn’t see that. Neutral progress for high achievers is fine, they are achieving as expected.

OP, what proportion of high achievers are in the cohort too?

I would want to find out about the pastoral care and the behaviour standards in the school. This is what I would be asking at any school: private or state.

Comps can nurture bright children well, but only if disruptive behaviour is under control.

Extra curriculars and school trips are bells and whistles.

you need to look at setting and behaviour.

check their ofsted reports.

https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/

Are you an expert in this field though? My point on the use of the word 'legal' (swap the word 'legal' for 'rules' as that's what I mean in this context) is just that it isn't the case of one size fits all and no possibilities for a school outside of catchment. There are mechanisms for an appeal. The OP just hasn't properly dug into them yet and has dismissed all other options as 'impossible' / too hard. Surely in the same situation any of us would try and exhaust all possible options before sighing and saying 'oh well it'll probably be fine'