to want the anti-vaxxers to explain themselves?

[Goldfsh]

My Facebook feed is full of GP practices etc. promoting the flu jab, and EVERY response is from people saying they are full of poison, giving everyone flu, part of a government conspiracy, Bill Gates, big pharma, etc.

It doesn't matter where the GP surgery is in the country, the responses are all the same.

Just... WOT IS GOING ON????

It's literally 100% of the respondents. Please can someone explain to me why the general public (on my feeds anyway) have become convinced that the flu jab is part of a conspiracy... to what end?!

Agree. Chemotherapy for cancer is hugely toxic and for the biggest majority of patients, does not cure them. Yet people will accept it to give them a few more months of life, despite causing hair loss, vomitting, loss of sensation, mouth ulcers etc.

Im not not dissing anyone’s choices, but I just cannot fathom why vaccines, especially the Covid vaccine, get so much hate over other medical treatments.

I think they want to help to reduce the overpopulation of the planet. How very altruistic of them.

I do think there is a difference between avid anti-vaxxers and people who think constant flu and covid jabs are as or more detrimental to health than the viruses themselves and that these jabs are simply a cash cow for the pharmaceutical companies. Or they may have more of a conspiracy theory about them.

However, I think you can be reasonably sceptical of the constant push of these seasonal jabs and at the same time be in favour of core childhood vaccinations.

My DM had an adverse reaction to the flu vaccination - reported via Yellow Card system and told not to have future vaccinations. Health care professions and pharmacological companies acknowledge adverse reactions can and do occur.

The flu vaccine is known as a risk in triggering autoimmune conditions. DM developed severe rheumatoid arthritis with sudden onset. She had previously been in very good health. She was on strong steroid treatment for 5 years but then developed osteoporosis and suffered several fractures. She ended up as a regular rheumatology patient progressing from methotrexate to biologics and osteoporosis treatment plus other medication to treat known side effects.

For some unlucky people the risk of vaccination is greater than the risk of developing the illness being vaccinated against. Where there is a risk there needs to be informed consent and choice.

Who is they? The government? We did actually need people to be making decisions and doing things. I know a lot of mistakes were made but hindsight makes experts of everyone and in the moment, they did what was reasonable. The fact that many people massively overreacted and reported their neighbours for going out for more than an hour or buying a newspaper is not their fault.

There's a very simple answer for this. I know a LOT of people who feel they and/or their loved ones are suffering long term ill effects from the covid jab(s). Heart conditions, clotting disorders, gynae issues, general feelings of malaise, constant colds/infections etc plus a myriad other things.

One of the most pro vax people I know has totally sworn off having any more boosters which, after seeing how enthusiastic about it she was during the pandemic, has somewhat shocked me. But I'm pretty sure many people share these sentiments now.

There are plenty of nutters in the world and social media gives them a play to share their nuttiness.

Neither I nor my husband have had any Covid vaccines (or, in recent years, flu vaccines). I wouldn’t described myself as an “antivaxxer”. Our DC have had all their childhood vaccines. I am educated to degree level and my husband has a PHD.

I've had ten COVID vaccines and I'm no spring chicken. In the past I drank far too much and have a history of chest infections. The 'utter poison ' is certainly a slow killer. And most of my friends should surely be very ill if not dead , if 'Dr' John Campbell is correct. There should be all these deserted houses, like the Rapture?

I’ve had 9 I think, still here
was ill before I had them so it’s not given me any more issues!

I have had several, and only had covid once, and wasn't very ill with it.

I think people are forgetting that the vaccine did help slow the spread of it significantly, and that no vaccine is completely risk free.

I'm not sure about getting another covid vaccination though, but DH has recently undegone open heart surgery and if being vaccinated is going to protect us both then we will get vaccinated again.

They were both as sick as I was, so no benefit observed from the flu vaccine here as far as how sick people got. They gave it to me in the first place. My husband got a Covid vaccine a month before we all got Covid. He was also just a sick as the rest of us. I'm not saying don't get it but if we're using anecdotes, mine are just as valid.

You are a little behind the times regarding cancer treatments - chemotherapy makes up just a small proportion of cancer treatments as we have immunotherapy and targeted treatments.
As for flu vaccines people will refuse until they catch flu and then the following year they are the first in the queue to be injected

yes we do have many targeted therapies and biological agents - but chemotherapy was essentially a toxic substance that millions of people agreed to despite it not adding to cure rates for the majority of cancers. And chemotherapy is still much more commonly used for most common cancers than targeted/biological therapies.

And cancer vaccines are being developed - will the anti- vaxers accept those I wonder?

But I’m not using anecdotes - you are. I’m basing my opinions on published research data. And you, science.

You’ve know way of knowing if the people vaccinated would have been more sick, or died even, without the vaccine.

Vaccines save lives. We know that for sure. But if you give any medicine to billions of people, some will be unlucky and have an extreme, possibly dangerous, reaction to it. I once saw a man go into renal failure and die after being given dihydrocodeine post-op - a drug that millions of people will have taken with no side effects. But the vast majority of people will benefit from vaccination.

I agree with this. People see it as so black and white when it's not. I've had and my children have had all childhood vaccines, they'll get the HPV and any other boosters they need but I don't give them the flu or COVID vaccine. I'm not an anti vaxxer at all but I want to limit what they put in their bodies as there are risks with any vaccines and whilst on balance the standard vaccines benefit outweigh the risk, I don't feel it does for flu or COVID.

One interesting vaccine scientist (a Danish Professor) is Christine Stabell-Benn. She posts (not that often) on X and specialises into research into the ‘non-specific’ effects of vaccines - that is, their effect on conditions other than the target infection.

For instance there is some research suggesting that (at least in lower income countries) some specific childhood vaccines decrease overall childhood mortality - ie are beneficial- in ways that go beyond protecting against the target infection.

For instance in the case of the measles vaccine, it seems not only to protect children against catching measles, but also to protect them against catching other potentially life threatening infections. This is a good thing.

Unfortunately, there is also research suggesting that, for other childhood vaccines (eg DTP) the opposite may be true, at least for certain demographics. This is not a good thing.

Her work brings out the immense complexity of vaccine science and the extent to which knowledge in it is- or should be- developing.

Uncritically supporting or opposing all vaccines is very like uncritically supporting or opposing all medicines. Some people, with some conditions, will benefit hugely from some medicines. Their lives will be saved. However that does not mean we should all stuff medicines down our throats as fast as we can, or force each other to take them. In the case of all medical interventions, there is always a cost/benefit assessment to be made & that requires research & information & willingness to accept facts that may be uncomfortable.

It is very unfortunate that hysteria (and profit) have made open and sensible assessment of costs and benefits for different demographics virtually impossible in the context of individual vaccines - and (see some rather wild posts above citing Brexit, Putin and the long defunct USSR) even potentially treasonous.

the clue is it wasn’t just the government. It was scientists

My DM who was an otherwise healthy 69 year old had life changing vaccine damage from the flu jab in autumn last year, we came close to losing her. It has been admitted by doctors that it was the flu jab that caused her issues. So I don’t think blindly trusting the vaccine programmes is necessarily wise.

I think many people do not understand the massive damage that has been done because of the way the covid vaccine was pushed on people.

It's funny, because there are many public health organizations and charities that work to try and spread vaccination in countries where there is low trust, where peopel may for example believe the government is trying to sterilize them, or they believe in things like witchcraft. One of the most important principles in these kinds of place is - do not force vaccination. It will backfire.

Public health people KNOW this. They knew. They majorly fucked up.

The UK was fairly moderate compared to some countries. Where I live, "officially" no one was required to take it by the state. But the state encouraged employers to require it of their employees. I would have been put on unpaid leave if I didn't get it. I knew people who worked completely alone who had to get it in order to keep contracts.

It was extremely invasive, and there were a lot of official sources that were telling people it might give near perfect immunity, like a measles vaccine. Or ridiculing people concerned about the fast track with testing. People came to realise the media was being dishonest in its reporting and that too made them lose trust.

The second part of this is when people see something like this going on, right after they think - I can trust these authorities, they think - ok, why are they doing this? And a lot of the time they do not believe all these scientists and the medical sector and the government are just fucking stupid. They think, there must be some agenda to get them all on the same page. They are trying to fuck us over. Why? Well, usually, for money or for power are going to be the possibilities.

And every conspiracy theory comes out of that.

It's not a thing where everyone has to think all vaccines are a great idea for all.

I've met doctors, working in the area of immunology, who aren't particularly into the flu vaccine. They think there are so many types of viruses like the flu that circulate that spending the money that the flu vaccine costs, when it will only work for a small proportion of infections. is not an effective use of resources.

Normally in cases like this, it's the underlying condition that is put on the death certificate. So when your elderly grandmother dies because her heart gives out after the flu, cause of death is heart failure and flu is an aggravating factor.

I don't know about the UK, but where I live, they actually hanged this for covid, for some reason people started to demand covid be put on the death certificate no matter what the underlying factor was.

One effect of this is that now, for the data in my country, it's impossible to compare how deadly covid was compared to things like flu.

You also have no way of knowing if they would have done just as well, or better, without the vaccine.

I'm not disputing that vaccines can save lives but, if you are the one person who has severe life altering damage, all those lives saved aren't really much comfort.

I personally am a fan of mixed methods research and put a lot of weight on qualitative, rather than quantitative, data. Individual stories, or anecdotes, do have value and meaning, especially if there are commonalities. Numbers and percentages are only part of the story and so impersonal.

Yes, if Covid or flu got my son at the time, they would probably have put something like respiratory failure. Horrible thought.

It’s clearly not that it “never makes sense”. I wouldn’t call myself an antivaxxer, but you would. I had a severe toxic reaction to a vaccine when I was 2. My parents were told I wouldn’t survive. I did. My medical notes say “Do not vaccinate”. What is there that doesn’t make sense?
Most people who you would call antivaxxers used to vaccinate. After experiencing a severe reaction themselves or in their child they stopped. Until you experience that sort of thing you won’t understand. Wouldn’t wish it in you.