To think any "pro-Palestinian" marches today should be stopped?

[Beachtastic]

Today is the second anniversary of the 7 October attacks.

Apparently "Students from London colleges are planning a joint march in the capital, while Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bristol and Sheffield are among other cities said to be expecting protests."

In my view, the timing of these marches proves beyond doubt that they are antisemitic in nature, and there is no place for them on our streets.

Do you agree, and if so, what would you like to see happen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1wgx5v90vyo

If I understand correctly, ‘infitada’ is a reference to Palestinian terrorist acts against Jewish civilians. So the picture upthread of a ‘protester’ carrying a sign that says, ‘globalise the infitada’ is literally calling for terrorist acts against Jewish people globally. That is not a protest- it is an incitement to hate and violence. How is this being tolerated in England?

I agree I find this deeply deeply disturbing. Straight from the Ministry of Truth. In an educational institution.

It's upsetting to me that it's come to this.

I am not anti-semitic or Islamaphobic. I am mostly against organised religion, and dislike the key tenets of all Abrahamic religions.

I also think that people of all, any and no religions are people deserving of human rights. Both Hamas and the IDF are despicable.

Opposing a genocide is not anti-semitic, however, anti-semitic groups have now latched on to anyone opposing the actions of the Israeli armies.

Yes.

The gaslighting is off the scale: "Oh, we mean no harm, it's a peaceful protest in aid of peace." Right... That's why you're marking the anniversary of a watershed moment in global terrorism and the deadliest assault against the Jewish people since the Holocaust. Hamas might not have managed to destroy Israel, but I don't think they're giving up yet on the idea of destroying Jews more widely and their propaganda has found some very cooperative allies here in the UK ever since the first "protests" of 14 Oct 2023.

That's one way of looking at it, and I appreciate your point of view. But I might have trouble feeling so detached and serene about it if I were trying to live as a Jew in the UK right now.

There is no genocide. It’s war, it’s brutal, and it’s unspeakably awful from the Palestinians caught up in it, but it’s not a genocide.

If Israel had chosen to wipe out the inhabitants of Gaza, they’d have done so long ago.

How can there be a genocide when the Palestinian Hamas regime could end the war tomorrow if it just released the hostages and went into exile as per the current peace plan.

Educate yourself by learning about the Holocaust, the Armenian, Assyrian, Rwandan, Herero/Nama genocides for what a genocide actually is… and you’ll see that what’s happening in Gaza - awful as it is for the Palestinians there - isn’t remotely the same as these horrific tragedies.

Exactly. I think PPs who say they'd draw the line at hate speech, but this doesn't qualify, perhaps don't understand what is being said.

Opposing a genocide is not anti-semitic, however, anti-semitic groups have now latched on to anyone opposing the actions of the Israeli armies.

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely not what this thread is about.

Let them march, show the world their total lack of respect, it does their cause no good. I have sympathy with both sides but to march today is disgusting.

Yes, you have absolutely every right to be furious at the protesters, and believe that their actions are despicable. I agree with you…

But I still don’t believe we should outlaw protests because some people are furious and upset by them, however justifiable those feelings are. It’s the thin end of the wedge to have Government ban a protest because some people find it distasteful and upsetting. Where does it stop? Such a precedent easily be used in reverse as political tides change?

Just for clarity, I’m in Scotland. Not that it should matter!

I haven't been on one of these protests and I don't support their cause at all.

But once you remove the right to protest, it isn't coming back. The OP just assumes only right-thinking people like her can be in charge- she might get a rude awakening one day, when something she does care about and wishes to protest is judged to be upsetting or in poor taste.

@Violetparis

While I am also very much in favour of free speech, I have two major concerns with today’s ‘protests’:

1. They may well be normalising incitement to violence and hatred of Jews which is endangering Jewish lives in Britain and also causing real fear and distress to them;

1. A large section of the British public is deeply insulted and disgusted by these displays. Reform is capitalising on this and having quite a lot of success in luring voters towards them. This feeds Reform’s racist agenda because they can point to the protests as examples of division caused by Muslims. To be clear- I do not agree with Reform, but I think the protests play into their hands.

I'd normally agree. But as @StarlightRobot points out (a few posts above), placards and posters and chants to "globalise the intifada" are literally inviting more terrorist attacks on Jews, wherever they may be. If that's not hate speech, I don't know what is. It is an incitement to hatred and violence towards a community still reeling from the attack in Manchester last week, and forever traumatised by the pogrom that took place on this day 2 years ago.

Everyone talks about not being able to turn a blind eye to genocide. Well, maybe focus your attention a little closer to home.

Absolutely. To think restricting free speech in this way won’t come back and bite you is naive.

Free speech can’t just apply to speech that doesn’t anger or upset us.

Well, if there’s incitement to violence, that’s a different matter…. But then that should be illegal every day, not just on 7th October.

Erm, you realise this is an event jointly organised by two different organisations - the Feminist Library (an institution that's existed for the past 50 years) and 'Goldmsiths for Palestine' (a small student-led group set up in the last few years)?

Where I live, there has been a number of pro-Palestinian demos/ vigils/ marches every single day for a long time - including the daily banging of empty pots (to highlight the lack of food in Gaza) organised in different locations across the country by Mothers Against Genocide Scotland. These are not being organised with any anti-semitic intention, to mark any particular date!

There have bene extra events organised in the last few weeks in direct response to events such as the violent attacks on/ illegal boarding of boats that were part of the flotilla attempting to deliver food and medical supplies, and the ongoing illegal detention of international activists who were part of that attempt.

The Israeli armed forces have long targetted international activists who have tried to travel to Palestine in solidarity with the ongoing human righst abuses committed against Palestinian people - and have deliberately killed and injured many of them. That continues today. Of course people around the world are going to demonstrate about this.

I agree with both of your points.

Can someone explain it to me in dim person terms please?
As far as I was aware Israel has killed 60000+ Palestinians but Hamas (specifically) have killed approx 1400 Israelis (most of which was 7/10)
I don’t know enough around the subject but it all seems to scream Russia marching on Ukraine then crying about retaliation?

I'm not talking about speech that "angers and upsets" people. I'm talking about speech that incites harm. This in the context of a meteoric rise in antisemitic hate crimes in the UK -- for example, they more than doubled in 2023/24, with a spike around October 2023 (funny, that!). For comparison, Islamophobic hate crimes rose by 13% in the same period, and there are about 14 times more Muslims than Jews in the UK.

I am not Jewish, by the way. (Or Muslim for that matter!)

PS: the same group (Mothers Against Genocide Scotland) are organising a candle-lit vigil tomorrow "honouring all lives lost since October 2023".

Yes, the vast majority of those killed have been Palestinian. And a huge % of those have been children. The same group have organised other (extremely moving) events recently where they've hung up tiny socks on washing lines to represent some of those tiny short lives.

As parents, their focus has really been on the children affected by this ongoing situation. It would be nice to see a bit more empathy from the parents on this forum, and a bit more effort to understand why people are motivated to protest in these ways.

its going to be impossible for you to learn about it on a thread. I suggest doing some research and listen to both sides. Please watch some footage or one of the documentaries about October 7th, the atrocities are not something I could describe. As well as the murdering they also took 250 people hostage including the world’s youngest hostage, a 9 month old baby and other very young children. They held them in unimaginable conditions. They said openly they wanted to do it all again and they celebrated as well as people in the UK who danced in the streets and had fireworks.
Israel retaliated in dropping bombs. While Hamas embedded themselves within civilians, they wear plain clothing, no uniform. They use babies and children as humans shields.
The estimate is around 60 000 deaths which includes Hamas terrorists, we won’t know how many because of Hamas’s tactics of embedding themselves with their civilians. This also likely included the civilians they have killed themselves, for protesting against them or talking with Israel. They have openly said they are happy with the amount of their civilians who have died for their cause and they don’t care because they can just grow their population more so it doesn’t matter.
It’s not a simple numbers game.
They are also still holding 48 Israeli hostages in Gaza.
I don’t know what lie the Hamas supporters have spun about the marches today but all they are are a celebrations of a brutal terrorist attack against Jews.

I really value the right to protest we have in this country, even though it means we have protests I disagree with.

I don't think we should stop peaceful protests. I also think it is perfectly possible to be appalled by the events of October 7th and to also protest against the ongoing genocide.

@Stompythedinosaur

You can watch some of the protests live on the Times website. I just switched it off because it was so offensive- chants and cheers for ‘the river to the sea’ which is a reference to the eradication of Israel. They are not protesting genocide but calling for Hamas’ cause, ie Israel’s obliteration

On 7 October?