To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

[Horsehow]

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

Acceptable when we have unemployed doctors in the UK?

I don’t recall posts being deleted by MN. I know that several of yours were, but remarkably few of mine.

Just one post would do, since you’re breaching guidelines here, making wholly false accusations. The fact that I think certain UK medical students probably shouldn’t progress because of lack of aptitude is realistic, not any more or less.

It’s even more worrying when you know the NHS isn’t doing the basic background checks to see if those same doctors have had any disciplinaries or even been struck off in other countries.

PurpleFairyLights yes you were deleted on a number of occasions but I’m going to leave you to your super weird and completely fabricated assertions. Threats? What on earth are you taking?

Put your money where your mouth is or discuss in a civilised way.

Absolutely bizarre.

oh dear 😅 it's an analogy.

we are talking about Uk junior doctors with 2 years general experience competing for specialty trainee jobs aimed at those with 2-4 years experience with international consultants who have 10+ years of experience with 4+ of those years being in that specialty. Also the points based system is up for serious manipulation. being published in UK journals or presenting at conferences is much more rigorous than in some other countries, setting aside finding the time to do those things during foundation years to compete with IMGs who may have been qualified for many more years.

as an aside it would be the junior "doing" roles that would be replaced by AI automation. Not the senior who has oversight, stakeholder engagement and development of new practices.
It would seem unlikely that a senior who lost their job due to AI automation would then apply for a junior training post for a qualification that they already have, that leads to the same senior position in an extinct profession

I have worked with many IMG's who are good quality trainees. The difficulty is that the UK CCT offers lucrative opportunities all across the world. So there is an incentive for IMGs with no intention of remaining in the UK long term, and no family links to the UK, to complete training here so that they can pursue a career in Singapore, Dubai, you name it. Hostile immigration policies for skilled workers actually make this problem worse in terms of retention. The UKG who misses out on a training place then leaves either medicine or the UK, to start a life somewhere or doing something else. The UK public having funded their undergraduate training to specifically prepare them for a career in the NHS... Therefore a generation of consultants is significantly diminished (in number) for the UK public, as waiting lists grow. And the UK essentially loses control of the undergraduate curriculum because it is situated overseas. There is a good reason no other country organises its medical training in this way. This was very short term thinking by Boris Johnson. You can't devalue and degrade medical professionals and retain a good quality of service for the public, end of.

Unless they were say an orthopaedic surgeon wishing to retrain into a different surgical speciality because robots are doing the knee and hip joint replacements they used to do as consultants.

Results of The Boris Wave

This won't happen for a long time. Even if it does ortho needed for trauma cases.

Can't emphasise enough not only is UK CCT valuable currency for working elsewhere in the world (therefore a prize in and of itself), but as IMGs can apply on an equal footing (or indeed an advantaged one if they have more years of experience and easier access to publication), any who have been obstructed in training in their own country for any reason, may be motivated to come to the UK, solely for the purpose of continuing their career progression (rather than because of a desire to live and work in the UK).

This does indeed make UK the "medical training academy of the world", making our own graduates unemployed to facilitate the training of doctors who may have no commitment or family ties to the UK whatsoever, and may feel actively discouraged from remaining in the UK as consultants due to immigration policy which is hostile to their dependants.

It's mad that anyone could defend this policy. It has nothing to do with hateful feelings towards IMG's - they are merely using their skills to serves their and their families interests as of course anyone would. Many make valuable lasting contributions to the NHS but they are under no obligation to do so as it currently stands.

Also there is a mention of dubious practices with CREST forms signed abroad.

I’d say it’s the opposite! It appears the left only like and support immigration if it’s for the poorly paid jobs that no one else wants …. seems it’s only a problem if it’s for a job that british candidates want

apologies @mumsneedwine - no idea why I’ve quoted you and it won’t delete!

It makes you wonder what hidden agendas the staunch defenders of this policy have.

One complete joker that is active on this thresd suggested my son did a PhD to help him get into higher surgical training. This was on another thread.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice i doubt robots will be taking over anytime soon. There's so many steps to doing an operation. The assessment, reviewing and consenting of the patients prior to even starting the surgery. There will still need to be consultants for oversight and review which needs experience of surgery and training from other experience consultants.
They certainly won't be taking over trauma surgery anytime soon

That is part of a basic GMC check (you have to get a letter from your home country’s GMC equivalent, confirming you are in good standing), so yes it is being done actually. There’s no need to scaremonger.

Do all countries have a DBS equivalent for their version of GMC to check against?

I have no idea, but presumably the GMC does. It doesn’t accept medical degrees from every country in the world.

I dont think all countries have a DBS type system that shows up convictions, cautions or the type of soft data that police forces keep in the UK. This data started to be collected due to Soham murders.

The GMC in the UK issue a certificate of good standing for UK doctors that move abroad so assume they accept similar from IMGs but if they do not have access to robust DBS data not sure how useful it would be.

This recent news article worries me: The doctors banned from practising abroad cleared to treat in NHS

Nope. Listen to she ‘your story’ podcast. journalists in 14 countries working to get her to expose this.

You’ve abhorred them wanting better pay for an incredibly difficult job where they deal with pain and death all day with limited resources and support? Wow

You’ve abhorred them wanting better pay for an incredibly difficult job where they deal with pain and death all day with limited resources and support? Wow

Although, to be fair to you Tigerbalmshark, i think it is the GMC rather than the NHS not doing their due diligence.