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Starmer thinks I am an enemy of the state

1000 replies

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 10:14

So we have it Starmer has declared at conference because I support Reform I am now an enemy of his Government.

Who would have thought it, a middle class British worker, now an enemy in the country I was born. And they say Reform is the party of Fascists. Yet we also now have the Home Secretary saying "In solving this crisis, you may not always like what I do. We will have to question some of the assumptions and legal constraints that have lasted for a generation and more". Maybe the Home Secretary too will be deemed an enemy of the state.

Am I being unreasonable to think this should be seen as a rallying cry to get this Government out at the first opportunity.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
BloominNora · 01/10/2025 16:15

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 14:41

I’ve read your other post and there’s a fair bit on various things being the result of others not Labour. Inflation is not helped by NI now. We had high asylum claims early 2000s pre Brexit, just by lorries. Debt is higher due to Reeves decisions now.

Yes some of those things went up with Covid and Ukraine but that being the case I didn’t want a party that would increase spending / borrowing and debt servicing. I thought it would cause economic issues to have a party which politically needed to respond to demands for more, and I think we are seeing that now. Reeves is just keeping the markets at bay but she has to deal with a party that wants higher spending.

As for Reform, they’ve picked up massively since Labour got in. As much as people applaud Starmer he is making their job easier. Votes are flowing from red to Reform. I thought it might happen pre GE due to some of Labour’s policies, so I guess it’s not so surprising.

They do seem to be responding on immigration so we’ll see if they can get voters back. Harder with the insults though.

Labour have been in power for 12 months and only 14 of the last 45 years.

True, inflation hasn't been helped by the NI increase, but it has nowhere near the impact of Brexit and run down public services.

Debt and borrowing has increased more under the Tories than it ever did under Labour, even when you account for Covid, but they haven't used that borrowing to invest in the country and increase growth, they've used it to fund ideology like Brexit and tax cuts. Even where the money has been used on infrastructure, its been so badly managed (see HS2), that not only has it increased debt, it has failed to improve growth.

There is nothing wrong with increasing debt in the short term if the borrowed money is used to fund growth. People who want to run down public services so that they can get rich off the private replacements that will fill the void have spouted the myth since the credit crunch that public finances are like a household budget. Getting people to believe that is how they managed to justify austerity for so long.

(And Rachel Reeves is exactly the same - I really don't like her as a chancellor and actually think she is a bit of a Tory shill).

The important metric is not the amount of debt, it is the debt to GDP ratio. That ratio reduces as growth and GDP increase.

To stick with the 'household budget' analogy (even though I hate it), it's like borrowing £50k on a £200k mortgage when your house is only worth £220k. What the Tories did with it was buy some new curtains and do a bit of painting, throw a party for their mates and use the rest on a luxury holiday, while the foundations of the house crumbled and it's value dropped even further.

Thus plunging the house into negative equity (Debt was over 100% of GDP for a while and is remaining in the high 90% for far longer than other countries)

What Labour should do (and I genuinely think they are trying to, if not very successfully yet) is borrow the money to fix the foundations, build an extension and help to improve the area, so that the house not only holds its value but increases it. So while the debt is high, the loan to value ratio isn't!

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:15

More than happy for people to call them the Farage Boats. Every time that is said people will remember that the Tories promised to stop the boats, Starmer promised to smash the gangs. But only Farage will take effective action.

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DuncinToffee · 01/10/2025 16:16

JohnTheRevelator · 01/10/2025 16:12

I am a lifelong Labour voter (although I am regretting it now after the shambles of this last year) but I could not believe the audacity of the man,making this sweeping statement. According to him,several million people in the UK are racists.

You didn't read what he said then.

JamieCannister · 01/10/2025 16:16

anotherside · 01/10/2025 14:37

Pfft. Firstly he said the Reform is an enemy of national renewal. Big deal.

Second, Farage has previously called left wing protestors the enemy. He has called the BBC the enemy. And he has called the EU the enemy.

So you’d think he’d be slightly thicker skinned about others using the same motive language.

You can't say "labour good reform bad" at the same time as saying "labour can do bad things cos reform do them too"

DuncinToffee · 01/10/2025 16:16

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:15

More than happy for people to call them the Farage Boats. Every time that is said people will remember that the Tories promised to stop the boats, Starmer promised to smash the gangs. But only Farage will take effective action.

How?

childofthe607080s · 01/10/2025 16:16

What action specifically please ?

JamieCannister · 01/10/2025 16:18

yellowspanner · 01/10/2025 15:24

I will vote Reform. It's interesting that membership of Reform, according to their membership tracker went up several hundred after Starmer's speech.
I watched it go up as it's live.
Starmer is desperate . He's cornered and, with luck well and truly finished.
And yes I do agree with Reform's policies.
They will cut the benefit bill which most people agree is unsustainable . And they'll sort the NHS and if that means privatising some of it or charging for some sevices then I support that.
And, importantly they will leave the ECHR and deport illegal immigrants

You are insane if you think privatisation will "sort the NHS".

Any who votes for Reform will have the blood of dead kids (and adults) on their hands

persephonia · 01/10/2025 16:19

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 16:07

It was high in 2002 just by lorry instead.

In 2002, a peak of about 84,132 asylum applications were made in the UK, a number that was higher than the 2002 peak until 2024, according to UK Parliament and GOV.UK. In the early 2000s, the primary method for people to reach the UK and claim asylum was hidden in the back of lorries.

  • numbers then went down after 2002 followed by more cooperation with France
  • In the 2000s asylum seekers had their claims processed and were then either allowed to remain or deported. What later changed was that effectively the processing of asylum claims ground to a halt leading to a build up of a huge backlog and large numbers of people in a limbo for years. Because nothing was really being done the numbers of people in this limbo grew and grew. The system was never perfect before then. But there was at least some semblance of a system.
  • Post Brexit, when a new problem arise (boats) Britain and France weren't able to easily cooperate in the way they had with the lorry problem (easily might be an exaggeration, but there were more channels of communication available)
  • so to add to the growing problem of the backlog, there was also an increasing number of people arriving. So the number of asylum seekers in limbo grew even more.
  • plus factors beyond the governments control. Like the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
JamieCannister · 01/10/2025 16:19

MikeRafone · 01/10/2025 15:30

Britain should be closed for a while, whilst it gets its house in order. If you have a British passport, you are British, end of. If you don't, then sorry, but you are here as a guest and you may not be able to stay unless you have a solid case. TBH we should just let everyone who is here now stay, and just draw a line under it for a while.

so what will you do when things close, for example, university will not function without students from abroad - of which there are around 450,000 annually paying top prices for a British uni education. Not only do they pay to go to uni they live and pay into the economy with rents and foods, going out eating and drinking etc

If there were less students there would be much less pressure on rents, so ordinary brits would have more spare money and that would help support the businesses that currently need to rely on foreign students who have more money than the average working class brit.

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:19

DuncinToffee · 01/10/2025 16:16

How?

Deporting anyone who arrives by small boat straight away. No one is going to risk their life and pay thousands to a boat man if they know they will get sent straight back. The boats will stop straight away.

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DuncinToffee · 01/10/2025 16:20

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:19

Deporting anyone who arrives by small boat straight away. No one is going to risk their life and pay thousands to a boat man if they know they will get sent straight back. The boats will stop straight away.

Deport where?

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:21

persephonia · 01/10/2025 16:19

  • numbers then went down after 2002 followed by more cooperation with France
  • In the 2000s asylum seekers had their claims processed and were then either allowed to remain or deported. What later changed was that effectively the processing of asylum claims ground to a halt leading to a build up of a huge backlog and large numbers of people in a limbo for years. Because nothing was really being done the numbers of people in this limbo grew and grew. The system was never perfect before then. But there was at least some semblance of a system.
  • Post Brexit, when a new problem arise (boats) Britain and France weren't able to easily cooperate in the way they had with the lorry problem (easily might be an exaggeration, but there were more channels of communication available)
  • so to add to the growing problem of the backlog, there was also an increasing number of people arriving. So the number of asylum seekers in limbo grew even more.
  • plus factors beyond the governments control. Like the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

The boats only started post-brexit because the lorries/vans were stopped much more effectively. When was the last time you saw someone try and climb into a boot waiting at Calais like they used to. It is displacement that hasn't been effectively managed.

OP posts:
MousseMousse · 01/10/2025 16:23

Anyone who supports Reform is one, or all, of 3 things:

  • Racist
  • Fascist
  • A fool
LarkspurLane · 01/10/2025 16:26

JohnTheRevelator · 01/10/2025 16:12

I am a lifelong Labour voter (although I am regretting it now after the shambles of this last year) but I could not believe the audacity of the man,making this sweeping statement. According to him,several million people in the UK are racists.

Which of these things below do you think are not racist/thuggery/criminal?

<Starmer speech>

So let us spell it out – once and for all.
Controlling migration is a reasonable goal.
But if you throw bricks and smash up private property…
That’s not legitimate – that’s thuggery.
Free speech is a British value – and we have guarded it for centuries.
But if you incite racist violence and hatred…
That’s not expressing concern – it’s criminal.
This party, this great party, is proud of our flags…
Yet if they are painted alongside graffiti…
Telling a Chinese takeaway owner to “go home”…
That’s not pride – that’s racism.
And if you say or imply…
That people cannot be English or British…
Because of the colour of their skin…
That mixed heritage families owe you an explanation…
And that people who have lived here for generations…
Raised their children here…
Built lives in their communities…
Working in our schools, our hospitals, running businesses…
Our neighbours…
If you say they should now be deported…
Then mark my words…
We will fight you with everything we have…
Because you are an enemy of national renewal.
And it will be a fight, conference.
It doesn’t get easier from here.

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 16:27

persephonia · 01/10/2025 16:19

  • numbers then went down after 2002 followed by more cooperation with France
  • In the 2000s asylum seekers had their claims processed and were then either allowed to remain or deported. What later changed was that effectively the processing of asylum claims ground to a halt leading to a build up of a huge backlog and large numbers of people in a limbo for years. Because nothing was really being done the numbers of people in this limbo grew and grew. The system was never perfect before then. But there was at least some semblance of a system.
  • Post Brexit, when a new problem arise (boats) Britain and France weren't able to easily cooperate in the way they had with the lorry problem (easily might be an exaggeration, but there were more channels of communication available)
  • so to add to the growing problem of the backlog, there was also an increasing number of people arriving. So the number of asylum seekers in limbo grew even more.
  • plus factors beyond the governments control. Like the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

It’s not Brexit that makes the boat situation harder than lorries. We do a lot with France. They’ve tried all sorts of things, tear gas, slashing them, drones, surveillance, police in riot gear.

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:27

JamieCannister · 01/10/2025 16:18

You are insane if you think privatisation will "sort the NHS".

Any who votes for Reform will have the blood of dead kids (and adults) on their hands

People die due to NHS waiting lists and failing everyday. Is there blood on the hands of labour voters. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.

Child mortality in the UK is some the worst in Europe so our "free" system is hardly working compared to the insurance based systems in other countries.

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persephonia · 01/10/2025 16:29

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:21

The boats only started post-brexit because the lorries/vans were stopped much more effectively. When was the last time you saw someone try and climb into a boot waiting at Calais like they used to. It is displacement that hasn't been effectively managed.

The vans were stopped much more effectively following a lot of investment and cooperation between France and the UK. When criminals switched to boats it was a trickle at first. It would have been fairly easy to stop it at that point but the Tories were completely distracted by Brexit infighting and slagging of Europe. There was no chance of establishing the same level of coordination on the new issue when almost every day was about insulting the French.
So yes, in a sense it was displacement. But it was displacement that could have been prevented. It was not an immediate switch from vans to boats- boats only became a thing in 2020 just as Brexit made it possible. Criminals (I mean the gangs not the migrants) will always seek out opportunity and Brexit/the Tories created a new opportunity.

MousseMousse · 01/10/2025 16:29

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:27

People die due to NHS waiting lists and failing everyday. Is there blood on the hands of labour voters. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.

Child mortality in the UK is some the worst in Europe so our "free" system is hardly working compared to the insurance based systems in other countries.

It isn't hyperbole.

Farage would end the NHS & usher in US healthcare. It doesn't take much research to see that US healthcare is plagued by all the same problems as the NHS - plus many more.

(Yes, even lengthy waiting times)

DingDongJingle · 01/10/2025 16:31

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:27

People die due to NHS waiting lists and failing everyday. Is there blood on the hands of labour voters. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.

Child mortality in the UK is some the worst in Europe so our "free" system is hardly working compared to the insurance based systems in other countries.

As long as you can afford it, obviously.

BloominNora · 01/10/2025 16:32

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 15:54

Small boats just replaced lorry crossings. There weren’t any in the early 2000s because people would jump in a lorry not a boat.

No - that is incorrect - numbers arriving by lorry did drop slightly between 2019 and 2020, but by 2021 were higher than they had been in 2018. Overall they remained relatively stable.

In 2018, arrivals by lorry accounted for 97% of irregular arrivals, by 2021 small boat arrivals had increased so much that arrivals by lorry only accounted for 24% of arrivals - even though the number arriving by lorry had actually increased slightly.

Cumulative irregular arrivals data shows the increase and that includes lorry's, small boats and improperly documented arrivals by air (which are very small)

Despite your challenge to me on what I thought about Labour's policies, you still haven't engaged with what you actually think about the substantive issues I raised about Reform and the Conservatives in my original post - you just keep trying to catch me out with the data!

Illegal clandestine arrivals by lorry - Migration Watch UK

1. The total number of migrants entering the UK clandestinely each year is not known. However, our analysis suggests that there have been at least 320,000 attempts to come to the UK without prior permission from Northern France since 2014. This number...

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/news/2022/02/16/illegal-clandestine-arrivals-by-lorry/

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:34

MousseMousse · 01/10/2025 16:29

It isn't hyperbole.

Farage would end the NHS & usher in US healthcare. It doesn't take much research to see that US healthcare is plagued by all the same problems as the NHS - plus many more.

(Yes, even lengthy waiting times)

I'm not sure you know what hyperbole means. Saying there will be lots of dead kids if you more to an insurance system is certainly deliberate exaggeration. Most countries in Europe with insurance based systems have lower infant mortality so the evidence is that it would save lives. But Labour voters never lets facts get in the way of slagging someone off.

OP posts:
DingDongJingle · 01/10/2025 16:36

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:34

I'm not sure you know what hyperbole means. Saying there will be lots of dead kids if you more to an insurance system is certainly deliberate exaggeration. Most countries in Europe with insurance based systems have lower infant mortality so the evidence is that it would save lives. But Labour voters never lets facts get in the way of slagging someone off.

Why are you assuming that everyone who is anti Reform votes Labour? I’ve never voted Labour in my life.

BIossomtoes · 01/10/2025 16:36

It’s not Brexit that makes the boat situation harder than lorries.

What is it then?

DuncinToffee · 01/10/2025 16:37

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 16:34

I'm not sure you know what hyperbole means. Saying there will be lots of dead kids if you more to an insurance system is certainly deliberate exaggeration. Most countries in Europe with insurance based systems have lower infant mortality so the evidence is that it would save lives. But Labour voters never lets facts get in the way of slagging someone off.

European countries invest a lot more in health care

How much will it cost the UK to change to an insurance type health care?

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 16:37

BloominNora · 01/10/2025 16:32

No - that is incorrect - numbers arriving by lorry did drop slightly between 2019 and 2020, but by 2021 were higher than they had been in 2018. Overall they remained relatively stable.

In 2018, arrivals by lorry accounted for 97% of irregular arrivals, by 2021 small boat arrivals had increased so much that arrivals by lorry only accounted for 24% of arrivals - even though the number arriving by lorry had actually increased slightly.

Cumulative irregular arrivals data shows the increase and that includes lorry's, small boats and improperly documented arrivals by air (which are very small)

Despite your challenge to me on what I thought about Labour's policies, you still haven't engaged with what you actually think about the substantive issues I raised about Reform and the Conservatives in my original post - you just keep trying to catch me out with the data!

This is 2018 I posted re pre Brexit and 2002, figures below for lorry arrivals which were high. Until recently the peak.

And I have answered. I put my views on the parties below, what’s missing?

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