LACK OF POTTY TRAINING BEFORE STARTING SCHOOL.

[DARNLY]

I think he is just trying to make a general point that many children (not specific children with various health issues such as prematurity, of course they should have extra support and help). are turning up to school at the ages of 4/5 not potty trained at all. Parents surely must take some responsibility for this. 1 teacher, 30 plus children with what appears to be levels of up to half the classes not potty trained. This is an impossible situation for the teacher, disruptive for education and difficult to time manage and not good for the child. Along with issues of an increasing lack of discipline in some very young children, teachers are leaving in their droves, we are in crisis. They are teachers not parents and do a fine job caring for our little ones in exceptional difficult circumstances these days. I was a working midwife and mother of 3 children. It was expected among parents of reception classes to try to ensure children were potty trained Potty training surely is a parents responsibility not a teachers. I don't remember any child in any class not being potty trained or virtually there. A busy state school with 30 plus in the class.

The only child I know who has gone to school not fully toilet trained and unable to use a knife and fork is the one who has benefited from having a parent at home full time, the rest of the children I know with two working parents have all had a very different experience and have gone to school fully toilet trained and much better prepared despite being much younger in the year. Of course there are exceptions and some children have additional needs which should be supported but this seems to predominantly be a parenting issue rather than a time issue in my mind.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, as I see many of these more privileged parents who just don't parent at all.
Inversely, the poorer parents are probably more likely to train quickly, so they can get rid of the nappy costs.
I also find so many poorer children are quite proud or try to maintain as much dignity as they can, so their children won't be hungry and peeing themselves too.

And where do you imagine the capacity is for professionals to supply “evidence”?

I had a late toilet trained child - I started at age 2 and they were just about trained by starting reception, but only because they are an autumn birthday and were approaching 5.

I raised concerns with various professionals in healthcare and education about autism from babyhood and it still took until midway through year 1 for my child to get a diagnosis. And that was pre-covid, it’d probably be a couple of years later than that given waiting lists now. So exactly what evidence would you have expected me to provide and from where?

Everyone always says “except SEN or medical” - you cannot always tell at age 3/4 if a child has SEN!! Or medical issues for that matter - it took a year and multiple GP visits before my child’s chronic constipation was diagnosed, which I’m sure was a major factor in their struggle with toilet training.

Fining me and stopping my child attending school would have been grossly unfair.

I think the fact nurseries are struggling also isn't helping this situation.

We have a 3yo in an our care who isn't potty trained because of circumstances. His current nursery, and all the other local nurseries I've since discovered after being curious, play no part in potty training whatsoever. His current one don't allow them to come in without a nappy until they've been fully dry at home for two full weeks.

When my kids were at nursery there were potties and pretty much all of them went after a few days training at home and it continued at nursery. With my twins (now left in) it was their nursery that said "they're getting nosy about the potties we've got for other kids so unless you have an objection we're going to let them try"

Luckily for us I have the freedom of not working, but I know quite a few parents who'll have to gamble that potty training will work in the school holidays as they don't have an extra two weeks annual leave to use just for that.

The thing is, at 4-5, it isn't always obvious that the child does have SEN and/or medical needs because unless it is very obvious, it isn't unusual for a child of that age to still be undiagnosed.

The vast majority of 4-5 year olds won't want to be in nappies and it is much easier for a child who is capable to use the toilet than to change the nappy of an older child.

Screaming "lazy parenting" right, left and center without actually looking into what's happening is certainly not going to help. If your child potty trained without issue like most of them, then you just have no idea what you are talking about.

My almost 4 yo refuses to use the potty/toilets for poos. That's it, we can force him to sit on it, we can't force him to actually go. He will hold it for days, if we insist too much he ends up impacted which takes weeks to clear and means daily accidents and leakage at nursery.

We've tried every method on the book, we've ask GP and Health visitor for advice: beyond prescribing laxatives and sending us the link to ERIC website they've been absolutely useless.

So the question now is how to we get him ready for school in September? We have no idea.
As far as everyone is concerned, he is NT.

It's apparently a common issue between 2-4, and "you just have to wait", like it will miraculously go away when he turns 5 🙄. They won't even investigate anything until kids are 6-7!

But if you’ve been seeking medical support you wouldn’t be fined, would you? Just the parents whose kids have not been toilet trained and have not sought help at all? It’s very easy to download medical evidence from the NHS app as a parent, to supply to school with their new starter questionnaires. HV are often involved in preschool assessments and can also give their input. I down load and screen shot medical data from the NHS notes for my [SEN] kids and their school/college/uni admin all the time. It isn’t onerous if you HAVE been seeking support to evidence it.

The fact is, many many parents are NOT toilet training their kids, not teaching them to use cutlery etc, not seeking help. People don’t step up unless there is the risk of censure/fine or their kids not being allowed to take up a school place. Your circumstances are easily evidenced and can easily be discussed with the school.

Not really that hard for working parents (we did it in a bank holiday). All the children at nursery were working parents (obviously as otherwise they wouldn’t have needed nursery!), and they were all potty trained before pre-school. The nursery followed your lead (some preferred to use pull ups, others no pants, others regular pants). This was the same with all other nurseries around here.

Mine has just started school (60 children) and in the teachers’ briefing they commented on how all the children could use the toilet unaided. They did mention that more of the children this intake were fussy eaters though!!

That depends. What if you are refused medical support?

If a child is thought to be NT but is having soiling issues, the incontinent team isn't going to be interested if they are 4. I doubt a referral would even be accepted.

It is utterly crap advice but this is why some parents ‘wait for the signs’ until they’re school age 🥴

“They get paid enough”.

You're joking, presumably?

Hmm interesting views in here. My DC (all three of them, NT as far as I'm aware) were all trained before preschool, and two by age 3, one at 3y3m, all easily done within a week or so and no ongoing regular accidents. Starting preschool was the hard line for me- I wanted them done, for both mine, the child's and the schools sake.

I do agree- notwithstanding SEN issues- children should be reliably trained by reception- that is a very low bar indeed.

However, all the people harping on about being trained by 18 months/2 years just remind me of older family members and competitive friends who say this but in reality their DC has multiple accidents a day for MONTHS, if not longer. To me that's not potty training, that's just letting your DC piss and shit themselves and being smug about it 😅

I have a significantly autistic child who’s just gone into mainstream year one in pull ups. They have an EHCP and funding for close 1:1 or 2:1 support throughout the school day. There are guidelines on who/how/where for the staff to support with toileting needs. My child is thriving in the mainstream setting. In the most part the comments are not aimed at children with special needs, however I’ve seen some very ignorant comments - one said children like mine shouldn’t be allowed in a mainstream school, another said that their whole reception class even the child with special needs was toilet trained. Please don’t assume you know what is best for every child with disabilities by generalising as you know (probably very little) about one individual.

In this case, the parent should talk to school so they are aware there is on-going problem. They might be able you allocate extra staff. I once had a child with cerebral palsy in my class, he had his own TA anyway because of his problems. His mother hadn't tried to toilet train him because of the CP but it only took the TA a couple of weeks although he always needed support. In his case there was no reason not to do it.

I dont understand why parents would keep on paying out money for nappies instead of potty training their kids. I relieved to have extra money in my pocket when mine came out of nappies. What I also fail to understand is that surely a child of school age, barring disabilities, must recognise the need the use the toilet, rather than just sitting there and doing it in their pants. Am I missing something here?

My children did not have multiple accidents a day, neither did their peers. Believe it, or not, 30 years ago it was the norm for children to be dry around the age of 2.

You took annual leave, some parents won't do that.

Who is op referring to?

I'm not disputing that it was normal back then (I'm not old enough to remember!). Just that people similar to me in age -within 10 years or so- who claim to have potty trained at an earlier age are often talking (literal) shite 😅

I do think modern nappies are too 'effective' and cheap. I put kitchen towel in my DCs nappies the week before training to encourage them- none of them would ever tell me they needed changing- they just didn't feel it as nappies are so absorbent and wick the moisture away from the skin! And 30+ nappies for a couple of quid from Aldi mean that cost isn't really an issue.

Potty training is hard work and has to be consistent for it to work. I have to book 2 week off work to do it. Some parents like my brother are too lazy, and expect the nursery/school to do it, even though they're in nappies when they get home! Lazy parenting for sure.

Can anyone say who the op is referring to when she says 'he in her post'?

"I down load and screen shot medical data from the NHS notes for my [SEN] kids and their school/college/uni admin all the time. "

Some GPs don't put that information on the NHS app. My GP doesn't for children or adults.

I had 2 children who literally didn't give a shit about toilet training - they were not influenced by peers, didn't care about 'big girl/boy pants' and both of them required months of training. I remember one particularly bad day, 2 weeks into training my DD when she went through every pair of bottoms that we owned (we could no longer stay in the house and had an event to attend, hence the memory).

Both children were summer born, so started school very soon after turning 4, and both children had accidents well into Reception and Y1.

It wasn't through lack of motivation or bad parenting or working FT (I was working PT then). It was down to them just not being interested. I'm sure they're not the only ones.

FWIW they are now adults at University, so they came good in the end.

My sons nearly 3.5yr old. Not ready yet. I have tried

Who are you getting to help you?