Growing trend for halal meat

[SouthernFashionista]

I’m seeing this and it concerns me. I have noticed that Five Guys is now advertising that all its meat is halal and the restaurant in my workplace serves only halal meat. Who is pushing for this and why do the rest of us have no say? For what it’s worth, I am a Black woman, a practising Catholic with many Muslim friends and acquaintances. I don’t believe they are out there demanding halal meat everywhere they go.

At some point isn't the word of god the word of god? What makes something objectively write or wrong of society changes all the time due to "feelies"

In contrast, we have managed to 'soften' and 'update' mainstream Christianity and Judaism reasonably successfully across much of the world. The Church of England is basically tea, sympathy and free childcare at this point!

As someone who does believe in Christianity I really object to that summary. You seem to be implying "proper" belief is fundamentalist, anti-gay whatever, and that the "nicer" or more tolerant/easygoing a believer is the more watered down their faith must be. It's quite a sneering attitude towards belief and seems to be equating "niceness" with weakness (of faith or just in general). I reality genuine strong belief is not the same fanaticism (in Christianity or I think Islam.or other religions). In fact it's arguably the opposite.

@nomas
Can you point out where I said Muslim women are oppressed or are you just lying about me?

I think it is much more accurate to say that when, many years ago, an old man write down what he considered to be God's word, it was actually the man, writing what he thought, which was a result of what he saw and heard around him, in that place and time.

The words have generally been altered, edited, and translated by other old men, writing what they thought, at the time, and frequently changing the meaning.

There are lots of God's words, written by different old men at different times, and in many respects they are different and contradictory. Perhaps they are different opinions of the same God. If not, they must be the true word of numerous different Gods.

We are really far away from animal welfare and non-stunning slaughter now aren't we!

No, that is not what I meant. I must have written the above very poorly, if that is a common reading of it. I apologise for the joke about the Church of England, it was genuinely meant with affection.

Since the Enlightenment, many brave men and women, some who believed very strongly in God and others who didn't at all, risked their lives to achieve liberalising changes in religious practices.

It is difficult to argue that the three Abrahamic religions when practised with a traditional, fundamental reading of the core texts is anything but controlling, patriarchal and highly sexist. Excluding women from all positions of significant power within a religion is wholly indefensible in the present day.

Modern Judaism and Christianity IS more feminist and flexible; that doesn't mean that its respective followers are silly, weak or any less devout. They just believe different things to the fundamentalists. I also believe, that if I'm wrong (?!) and there IS a God, they are much more likely to be right about what God actually wants.

You can be very passionate about women vicars/priests/bishops, better addressing historical child abuse issues or permitting gay/lesbian marriages in churches. Those aren't weak, or necessarily easy, positions to hold. They are admirable.

I suggest you go back and read that post. It reads like a racist, misogynistic weaponised religious rant.

The post is not just harsh. It is dripping with racism, harmful stereotypes and predicated on lies. It also does imply that Muslim women are superior.

Do you really believe the harmful stereotypes they posted are any less hate inducing than the nonsense Donald Trump, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon or Nigel Farage spouts.

I know all about race hate crimes not just against Muslims, I see the direction this country is heading in. I know about structural and systemic racism. I understand where dehumanisation leads.

Nothing excuses that post or your efforts to legitimise it.

lol. I put that whole post (copied and pasted) from zebra on ChatGPT and asked it, if it was racist, in the interest of being unbiased. Apart from the last paragraph it’s all ChatGPT. Did you read it all? Read it again.

We have drifted far! I appreciate your comment. I agree there were a lot of (for example) Christians who pushed for greater liberalisation.within the Christian religion but also within politics .sometimes they were explicitly motivated by a wish to make religion/religious laws less onerous, but often it was because they themselves were the minority (Catholics or non-conformists in the UK) and therefore needed tolerance for themselves. A lot of the rights we have in the UK came about as a result of the need for continued negotiation between the rights of different religious groups. The concept of British tolerance but also specific rights (to freedom of religion etc) emerged from that back and forth. Of course, Christians in the UK were also concerned with more general human rights issues - Quakers opposing slavery etc. And sometimes they intersect. The reason Juries have the right to acquit according to their conscience is because Quakers stood up for their religious beliefs and the non-quaker jury also stood up for their rights.
I think there are Muslims who have also acted extremely bravely in defense of human rights
Malala Youssafi for one (and also her father who made enormous sacrifices to ensure his daughter received an education). And there are thousands of practicing Muslims in Iran who put their lives at risk defying the regime there. Islam is as varied as Christianity is.

But.to bring this back to where we drifted from, while I do understand some people have genuine animal welfare concerns, the current Zeitgeist for treating Muslims as a potentially dangerous "other" risks negative consequences not just for Muslims themselves but also for the whole "British Liberal Values" that some people claim to be defending. It's going back to a time before Catholics, Non-conformists etc had equal rights. The fight for those rights helped create the values people are so defensive of.

The Quran was written in the 7th century.

We rightly mock Donald Trump and the Republicans for inflexibly adhering to the "Right To Bear (Fire)Arms" guaranteed by Second Amendment to the US Constitution, ratified in 1791.

The World, and its weapons, are so different now, we all say! The American Forefathers would never have wanted this! But compared to the Quran, the US Bill of Rights is positively contemporary.

We need to be able to change our behaviours to reflect changes in our environment. This applies at the individual, family, clan and even at our species level. Reflecting on the impact of religious teachings and culture, which are often indivisible from each other, will be key here.

'Watering down your religion' is more accurately allowing it to grow, mature and better reflect the challenges and joys of modern life. Being stubborn and adhering to practices that treat women as 'lesser,' and setting out how they are to be controlled for their own 'protection', or requiring animals to be fully awake while they die or else we can't eat them, is not admirable.

We should respect the right to practice a chosen religion, when this abides by the applicable laws of the country. This doesn't mean we are required to respect all aspects of any religion.

All slaughter of UK farm animals should require stunning first. No exemptions to UK laws should have been permitted for Kosher or Halal slaughter. We are (or should be) all equal before the law.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700557

It was already debated and denied months ago

Do you know that all kosher meat is unstunned but not all parts of the animal are considered kosher. The parts that are not considered kosher are sold on the non-kosher meat market.

So what? Religion and it's morality and teachings are from god. God's rules and wishes don't get watered down over time. Women are not seen as lesser at all in islam. The more I read and learnt, I realised in Islam men and women have different roles, but they are equal in the eyes of god.

I wouldn't mock Donald Trump and the 2A. I like how in America you have the right (and practical ability) to defend yourself. This is getting completely off track anyway. An American will defend themselves if attacked, a British person would just cower in fear and hope they don't get hurt even more.

As PPs say most halal slaughter is stunned. You can practice all aspects of all major world religions without breaking any UK laws. If people really cared about animal cruelty they'd be vegan and work for PETA.

I disagree with not teaching tolerance for LGB people and would not support any ban on this (I stood against section 28). However, tolerating the idea that you are born in the wrong body, that you can change sex and that transwomen are women (and transmen men) are ideas which impinge on women's rights and women's spaces. They also impinge on the rights of children to grow up in their bodies without being fed the idea that puberty blockers and surgery can change their body to that of the opposite sex (i.e. cosmetic surgery resulting in sexual disfunction and sterility). I fully support anyone who protests against our teaching children this load of dangerous rubbish.

@FoodieBoobie

"Religion and it's morality and teachings are from god."

No, they're societal norms that somebody wrote down and thought of a way to enforce them.

Do you seriously think that prior to Moses, tribes and villages didn't think it was wrong to kill, steal and commit adultery? Or that only Jewish people five thousand years ago enforced proper behaviour?

Do you have a god that encourages slavery and genocide? Some people do.

Women are seen as 'lesser' in a fundamental reading of the rules of Islam.

For example, the following rights are, very much, lesser than those granted to men under Islam:

• A woman may only have one husband but a man can have up to four wives
• A man can (religiously) divorce a wife by saying 'I divorce you' three times. A woman cannot do this, and must ask her husband (or a Sharia Court) for permission
• A woman's evidence in court has only one half the weight of a man
• A woman's inheritance from her parents is only half that of a brother's
• A woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man. But a man can marry a Jewish or Christian woman

The Islamic benefit of a husband being required to financially provide for his wife or wives, even if they earn much more than him, is very poor recompense for the above.

Most women enjoy working and earning their own money (much of the time!) just like men do. And I would far rather be in a marriage that is a true partnership where we share the childcare and all the emotional and financial responsibilities.

I am genuinely interested to understand how the above rulings for women are not lesser?

I don’t eat meat and I hate to ask but how exactly is non-halal killed? Stunned then what? I always thought halal was non-stunned but that may have been a long time ago.

All non-halal, non-kosher meat is stunned and then exsanguinated - major blood vessels severed and then raised up so that the blood drains out. If you don't do that, the blood sits in the meat and spoils it very quickly, makes it taste awful and metallic I believe.

The exact process will vary from species to species - pigs for example are electrically stunned using a pair of tongs that go either side of the head, passing the current through the brain - then the hind leg/s are shackled to an overhead chain pulley system - throat cut, then the animal is moved on a runner system, still suspended, to the butchering areas.

Cattle and sheep are stunned with a penetrating captive bolt - so a bolt comes out of the gun, penetrates the brain which renders the cow unconcious - then the same as above though some abbatoirs use a crush that tilts, then the chain shackle lift procedure.

Chickens - gassing - they stay in their transport crates and are passed on a conveyor belt through a controlled atmosphere, basically a gassing room, and then are quickly processed as the crates come out the other side before they wake up.

Electric waterbath - some places still use this though it is much more stressful - each animal is removed from the transport crate, strung up by a leg on a conveyor track system - that moves them head down into a waterbath that passes an electrical current through the brain - then immediately out of the waterbath the throat is cut so they bleed out. However, they can lift their heads up and swerve the water bath, and if the cut isn't done fast enough they can regain conciousness before it happens.

With most halal meat produced in the UK, all of the above happens but... the killing is done by a muslim using the correct equipment and prayers are said (usually via a PA system on a loop) as thats done. Just a tiny amount of halal slaughter happens without the pre-stunning, but exsanguination via a very sharp knife is very quick, and not especially painful if its done properly. I don't think its good, but I also don't think it adds a significantly large amount of stress compared to the rest of the process!

People that are unhappy with this simply need to boycott the companies that are doing it.

Bloody hell @widdlindiddlin your post is making me think I might go veggie...

Yes, except that halal meat is increasingly being rolled out in the public sector. The meat served in school dinners at the secondary school near me is all halal, even though only a third of the children are Muslim.

It is assumed that non-Muslims don't mind or don't care. Usually it's that they don't know. I would feel the same if it was kosher meat.

Also, the idea that halal slaughter complies with UK animal welfare requirements is clearly not the case. See picture of a sign in a shop in my town.

I think the kernal of the point made is that more Muslims are in the UK and they are not integrating terribly well esp. with the problem of first cousin marriages generation after generation, which causes a higher rate of birth defects in some Muslim populations in the UK. The NHS has said first cousin marriages are a good thing since they consolidate property and mean that people are well-supported by family!!

Since the NHS is falling over itself to pander to various minorities, I wouldn't be surprised if all the meat served in hospital kitchens is halal. Probably in prisons too. The public sector has created a huge market for it and most people just aren't aware of it.

It's easier than having 2 separate meat orders right? Economies of scale.

There only needs to be one type of meat in the UK.

If I went to live in a Muslum country, I wouldn't expect to be served non-halal meat in their hospitals and schools. That would be foolish and weak.

Check out Catherine Blaiklock's work on X. It is against the law to serve stealth Halal to non Muslims. A Welsh minister openly stated all schools in Swansea were Halal only. Catherine and her team are going to put in legal challenges. This country fails to follow the law. They hide behind abattoir codes on produce.