Muslim wives legally invisible

[ShowMeTheHunny]

Perhaps this should be in the feminism chat, but I’ve just found out something shocking: 60% of British Muslim women are in Nikah only marriages.

Nikah is a religious marriage ceremony. Unlike Jewish or Christian marriages, there is no automatic civil registration.

This means that under British law a Muslim woman with a Nikah marriage is in fact not married at all. If the relationship ends (through separation, divorce, or death), she has: no right to spousal maintenance, no claim to property or pensions, no inheritance rights and no access to the protections of the UK Family Court.

This has been raised in parliament. This has been raised by judges. The 2018 government review found that many Muslim women believed their Nikah marriage had legal standing.

Anything done about it? Nope.

I wondered if this is covered in schools. There is a statutory relationships and sex education guidance that the DfE published which schools must follow. It does require teaching about marriage, but NOTHING in the statutory wording prompts schools to explain the difference between a religious-only ceremony and a civilly recognised marriage.

So, many/most of you might be thinking, ‘So what? It’s none of our business to interfere with others’ religious or cultural practices! Surely it’s the same situation in other countries?’

Nope. The following countries ensure, through legislation, that Islamic marriage ceremonies happen after or alongside civil registration:

France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Finland, Sweden….basically all the European countries….except Britain.

Anyway, anyone else shocked?

I don’t really understand this post. Islam- or any Religion -doesn’t give anyone any rights. It’s an optional way of living that people chose or are born into. There is no granting, or enforcement/ checks and balances of how people are treated inside a religion. Religions have no power to grant or remove rights.

women have these rights under British law. If they are taken away the remedy is criminal or civil prosecution through British courts. Islam doesn’t come into it.

But in France, at least out of all the countries you cited, a religious ceremony isn’t a legal ceremony.
couples usually have a legal ceremony at the Mairie or somewhere, followed by the religious ceremony for those who want one.

Those rights are all very well but in reality I think you must know that in Muslim-majority countries they are not often put into practise.

You don't have to be an Islamophobe to know that women in those countries get a very raw deal most of the time, particularly if trying to claim the rights they are due.

Have you lived in an Islamic country?

Can you give examples of countries where you see this working well for women?

The problem is in some Pakistani and Bangladeshi families this risk is compounded by generations of cousin marriage, making the risks higher.

Very well put, Justiceeternal; I've pointed this out myself before now, and what sometimes isn't appreciated is that it's culture which can give rise to problems rather than the actual religion itself

Admittedly some within that culture will cite corrupted interpretations to excuse horrors, just as we see with other religions, but then comments on culture aren't always appreciated either

Where does it say that? Quote the Quran where it says that. I cannot find it. Fact check before posting. My first post highlights we have protection from injustice and abuse. Please read posts properly.

Your’re talking about a generation of people in the general population who generally don’t get married as much. Add in if you are religious the only way you can spend 1:1 time alone with someone you have to get married religiously. So you’ll be married. Then you’ll have a wedding possibly a year later. For some people it isn’t important and they won’t want it. What percentage of mumsnetters are in a long term relationship but not married? That would be an interesting stat. But yes historically among muslims and other religious groups there has been a history of the religious wedding having no legal position. I say this as a muslim.

I don’t think you can separate religion out as text. It is the way lives are lived and that includes for women and girls.

But yes historically among muslims and other religious groups there has been a history of the religious wedding having no legal position.

Yes, and along with unmarried mumsnetters in relationships they are at a severe disadvantage by not being legally married!

Please stop spreading misinformation about Islam. Islam is not the problem. Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim posts on Mumsnet is becoming more and more common. What is the purpose? Explain it to me like I’m a child how it is for the greater good? There are problems in every community - why is this rhetoric being promoted repeatedly? We are already being targeted in the real world, why are some of you spreading misinformation and making us unsafe?

I haven’t read the whole thread, but to those saying that this should be taught in schools, it is.

The statutory guidance makes it clear that by the end of secondary school, pupils should know
“what marriage is, including their legal status e.g. that marriage carries legal rights and protections not available to couples who are cohabiting or who have married, for example, in an unregistered religious ceremony.”

I don’t know how long this has been a requirement, so no doubt some women will not know - or will have forgotten.

it’s on p27 of this.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68b96b003f3e5483efdba9b4/Relationships_Education_RSE_and_Health_Education.pdf

It's not really a surprise - Islam is not really set up for the benefit of women.... at all!

Most religions aren't.

This is a very fair point, EasternStandard, the more so as Islam really is seen much more as a "code for life" than just something to do on Sunday or whenver

However there are countless muslims who live thoroughly decent lives according to that code, with rights for their women and all the rest of it, but needless to say they're not the ones who attract headlines

I'm the first to criticise those who corrupt what they claim to believe, be it Islam or anything else, but I'm very mindful that it's culture which is responsible rather than the religion itself - and that's coming from someone who doesn't adhere to any of the mainstream ones

When my friend married, the imam said at the Nikah that he would never marry a couple who hadn’t already had a civil wedding. This was in London about 20 years ago.

Many Hindu and Sikh women are also in religious only marriages. The problem is that the British government discriminates against people who can’t christian, forcing us to pay extra for registries etc and many people just can’t afford to do that especially when their weddings are paid for by extended family. The government needs to legally recognise ALL religious ceremonies.

There doesn’t need to be any extra cost involved. The Hindu/Sikh/Muslim religious leaders need to become licenced to perform weddings like Jewish, Catholic, Anglican Church leaders are. They are effectively licenced as registrars, just like the people go perform civil weddings.

The statutory guidance makes it clear that by the end of secondary school, pupils should know “what marriage is, including their legal status e.g. that marriage carries legal rights and protections not available to couples who are cohabiting or who have married, for example, in an unregistered religious ceremony”

I know, @Fifthtimelucky, but in light of past events only a very brave teacher would then go on to point out that "this doesn't apply to such-and-such a religious marriage", and even if they did the kind of families being discussed may very possibly dismiss it as western lies and even remove their child from the school

For sikh marriages you have to show a legal marriage certificate before you do a religious ceremony as they will refuse you. This can either be done as a civil ceremony or a registrar can attend the temple before the religious ceremony. As most of my circle are Muslims Nikhas are not legally binding. Some make sure there legally registered and some of my friends rely on the local imams to be fair hence "dowry" they pay including gold

It’s just like agreeing to arbitration for a business/ financial dispute.

You can agree to have a civil dispute settled by any system you like, including Sharia law or another religious system.

But where people go wrong is they thing it’s going to come in as a form of recognised criminal law, or anything to which all parties don’t consent, which a. Won’t happen and b. Would be madness.

@PuzzledandpissedoffI don’t think the teacher would need to single out particular types of religious marriage. As others have said, there are many faiths whose marriages aren’t automatically legally binding.

The teacher would just need to say that the only religious marriages that were automatically legally binding were CofE ones and that if in the future pupils from other faiths wanted the full protection of marriage they should make sure that their religious marriages was backed up by a separate legal ceremony/registration.

I am concerned about both, its entirely possible

And dont forget that her husband must provide everything for thr household and his money is also hers. But her money is hers alone.

I think it is more to do with the fact that telling other woman how they should live their lives, feels better than facing up to ignorance in our own culture. The risks associated with IVF are also something that isn’t talked about much.

I think everyone should be made aware of stuff like this but we might have to look to our own house as well.

Usually gurdwara’s are usually registered and recognised as places who can carry out civil marriages. Most people we know have both done during the Sikh ceremony.