Muslim wives legally invisible

[ShowMeTheHunny]

Perhaps this should be in the feminism chat, but I’ve just found out something shocking: 60% of British Muslim women are in Nikah only marriages.

Nikah is a religious marriage ceremony. Unlike Jewish or Christian marriages, there is no automatic civil registration.

This means that under British law a Muslim woman with a Nikah marriage is in fact not married at all. If the relationship ends (through separation, divorce, or death), she has: no right to spousal maintenance, no claim to property or pensions, no inheritance rights and no access to the protections of the UK Family Court.

This has been raised in parliament. This has been raised by judges. The 2018 government review found that many Muslim women believed their Nikah marriage had legal standing.

Anything done about it? Nope.

I wondered if this is covered in schools. There is a statutory relationships and sex education guidance that the DfE published which schools must follow. It does require teaching about marriage, but NOTHING in the statutory wording prompts schools to explain the difference between a religious-only ceremony and a civilly recognised marriage.

So, many/most of you might be thinking, ‘So what? It’s none of our business to interfere with others’ religious or cultural practices! Surely it’s the same situation in other countries?’

Nope. The following countries ensure, through legislation, that Islamic marriage ceremonies happen after or alongside civil registration:

France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Finland, Sweden….basically all the European countries….except Britain.

Anyway, anyone else shocked?

Hang on I didn't say we should ban religious ceremonies! Just that celebrants should be required to see proof of registration first.

If people genuinely want a religious marriage without the legal part then perhaps there could be an ability to officially opt out but I'm not sure that's something we as a society want to encourage.

I'm not sure what you mean about Belgium. I'm in Belgium and EVERYONE needs a civil wedding, whether or not they have a religious wedding so it's not the same as what you're asking for. I think it's the same in France. You either get just a civil wedding or you get a civil one and also a religious (or humanist or whatever) one.

People can also be legal cohabitants, which is a separate thing and not (quite) a marriage.

Absolute poppycock, there is no discrimination whatsoever. Catholicism is a Christian religion and often has to have a civil ceremony.. NO the government don't need to recognise all religions. There are laws in place for marriage for a reason. The law of the land is final.

My understanding (which hopefully is a correct recollection- I found this out when I got married 20 years ago!) is that the arrangement is not pro or favouring Church of England but that until relatively recently getting married in-the Church of England was the norm, and “registry office” ceremonies didn’t really exist.

My atheist grandparents have wedding photos outside an church so must’ve been married there; my parents married in a Catholic Church and have photos of them Signing the register with the priest who was presumably an authorised celebrant. I just don’t think people had the choice

So it’s all just a big coincidence that the same stuff is happening in several countries and in small parts here?

What about the recent change of law in Iraq to allow marriage of girls aged 9?

The law gives religious authorities the power to decide on family matters, including marriage, divorce, and child custody, and abolishes a longstanding ban on child marriage under the age of 18, which had been in place since the 1950s.
This change significantly reduces protections for women and children, exposing them to greater risks of exploitation and abuse.
The law also restricts women’s access to fundamental rights, including divorce, child custody, and inheritance, which are all important for their autonomy and safety.

Nb. Those ‘religious authorities’ are Islamic. This is 2025, is that still ‘mad dogs’ of the revolution?

Even though it is all done by Muslims in the name of Islam, it’s nothing to do with Islam?

Maybe there needs to be a breakaway by and new name for the moderate Muslims that are appalled by all this?

There was a study published in the Lancet a while ago saying there was an equivalent risk. If you google it, you will find information about it. There has been similar research findings on IVF but I have no idea if that is because of parental age, higher chance of multiple births or some other factor.

I think first cousin marriage is more easily avoidable than having babies when you are older (certainly in western society) but I think people on mumsnet who judge cousin marriage but then happily encourage people to have babies when they are older are thinking more about the ick factor rather than the actual risks.

Yes, I think this is the difficulty.

While we have no workable way to differentiate between the people who are Muslim that do bad things because of it and the people who are Muslim who are appalled by those bad things, it makes it very difficult to call out the bad things without getting lambasted for criticising ALL Muslims even when I point out that I know it’s not all Muslims.

As I mentioned on another post maybe we need a means of differentiating?

Meanwhile, police and the authorities were enabling the rape gangs in Rotherham, Oxford, Bristol, Derby, Rochdale, Telford, Leeds, Newcastle partly because they were too scared to be seen criticising Muslims. So this has caused real harm.

Those ‘religious authorities’ are Islamic. This is 2025, is that still ‘mad dogs’ of the revolution?

Probably not the same people, but the same mentality certainly, @BundleBoogie

BTW you mentioned Iran and it's worth noting the place is unique in having a Shia majority (over 90% I believe) rather than Sunni
One major difference is that Sunnis believe authority rests in following the Prophets example and traditions (the Sunnah) whereas Shias consider it belongs to their Imam who's deemed infallible

Easy to see how problems can arise if the Imam turns out to be rather less than that ...

Do you see any problems for women and girls in Afghanistan now?

Sometimes, but my friend wanted a Nikah only marriage as she was the higher earner and had more savings that she wanted to keep in case things ended badly. She did separate and was glad her ex couldn't claim anything financially. Obviously, her situation was very different though.

Cba to read however many pages this is

I thought most people knew this? It got talked about even when I was at school.

I feel sorry for anyone who gets caught up in it but if you've ever tried standing up for certain groups of women, you'll know how pointless it is

i'm never quite sure what we're allowed to say.

Muslim women, or men in any case are NOT discouraged from having a civil marriage. Some have it done and some don't. It isn't discouraged in Islam to have a civil marriage or anything like that. Most young Muslims now just see it as a personal choice.

Do you see anywhere that doesn't have problems for women?

I’ll answer after you. Is it a yes or no for Afghanistan? Re problems there for women and girls.

To me it seems exactly the same with Islam and Christianity.

The actual texts are deliberately misinterpreted and distorted by some people to suit their own agenda.

Registry office marriages have been legally available in England and Wales since 1836. By the early 90s they were 50/50 with churches.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/marriagecohabitationandcivilpartnerships/bulletins/marriagesinenglandandwalesprovisional/2021and2022

But after the mid 90s the Marriage Act widened the types of premises that could be used, and the percentage of both religious and registry office weddings have dropped since.

Meanwhile, police and the authorities were enabling the rape gangs in Rotherham, Oxford, Bristol, Derby, Rochdale, Telford, Leeds, Newcastle partly because they were too scared to be seen criticising Muslims. So this has caused real harm.“

No, they were enabling rape gangs because they themselves were raping the same victims and didn’t want their pool of victims to become smaller.

Yes it also allows you to present as single for social housing and benefit purposes. It is a godsend for some women

It isn't a worthless ceremony. It's a special commitment between man and woman.

They're Shiaa Muslims. It's actually haram (not allowed/a sin) to have temporary marriages in order to have sex. It's the most bizzare wedding i have ever heard of. They ask.you how.long would you like to be married for. And they all sat down at a table and agreed a week would be enough so they could have as much sex as they liked and then divorce. In their minds, if youre married then its not a sin as they're technically not having sex out of marriage.
It's a practice by the minority Muslims called Shia. And the temporary marriage is called Mutah.

This is not in the Sunni Muslims way and actually goes against Islam. Sunni Muslims commit forever not for a week because we fancy each other and just want to have sex. It's stupid.

The problem is for some women a Nikkah only marriage suites them.
The same way for some non Muslim women, cohabiting and not legally marrying their partner suites them.

On the whole women are more vulnerable without a legal marriage especially when kids are involved. But you can't force women to legally marry/prevent them from cohabiting or having children without a legal marriage certificate.

There is a lot of ignorance where Muslim women assume they have legal rights and don't. More generally there is a lot of ignorance where people insist "common law marriage" is a thing. We need more education. Other than that people have the freedom to make decisions that are "bad" for them.

Did someone really just refer to a Muslim marriage as a worthless ceremony? And meanwhile I am being lambasted for talking about factual statistics next door. This place is wild.

Well,if youre part of a rape gang, youre no longer a Muslim.. you have gone against the quran. Quite frankly, youre scum if youre a rapist. Regardless of ethnicity or religion, it doesn't matter. There's nothing in any religious text that condones rape.

Very true.
And there is so much similarity between islam and chirstianity.
I would refer to a Christian woman as my sister the same I would to a muslim sister. We both love God. We both follow God and Muslims love jesus too.

The thread went batshit. As they all do these days. I think all religions are bad for women and I quite often- mostly even- think there is no God.

But religion will continue to endure, so we need to find a way to protect those not C of E.