Botox & frozen faces

[Expressionless]

If you have Botox to the parts of your face that mean you’ve rendered yourself unable to move large part of your face or have very little movement in your eyebrows / around your eyes, does it not bother you that you essentially look frozen and expressionless?

At the end of the day, most of us, would like to reduce fine lines and wrinkles - we live in a world that holds women to ridiculous youth standards - basically we all feel we shouldn’t age and that an ageing face is the worst possible outcome. But at what cost does this come?

Watching almost all TV / films now means any woman over about 25, maybe 30 at a push essentially has a frozen face and quite literally can’t show emotions properly. Most men don’t do it, so it’s definitely a sexist standard.

Women saying they ‘do it for themselves’ - well okay, but only because you’ve been conditioned to find ageing abhorrent.

Why can’t we just be left the fuck alone, to age and have faces that move and show our expressions and feelings. Like we have for 1,000’s of years.

There are two specific things that some people have done that I think always look terrible. So I haven't had these things done. What others want to do is no concern of mine.

Oh live and let live, you do you and let everyone else do the same…..if Botox isn’t for you then great, I personally love getting it and fully intend to hold onto my looks for as long as possible but if you don’t feel the same then that’s fine as-well……by the way I get small undetectable amounts that are cleverly placed so I certainly do not have the ‘frozen’ look

Since time began some women have been doing things to try and maintain their beauty ( cleopatra and milk baths), so I don’t know why you think things should be different now.

I am enough and do what I want so butt out of other people's choices!
Again : i do it for me, stop flogging the fucking horse. I get that you don’t like it or approve. Point made :)
Tell me though how it’s different from judging what women wear?!

I was obese at age 11, I spent my entire life from that point to this year fat. This year I have finally lost the weight and I am now slim. I am 42 years old and I wanted to have some years both slim and non-wrinkly. I only have enough to stave off the 11 lines that I have because of scowling at my work computer too much, I am still able to raise my eyebrows to demonstrate my contempt or highlight sarcasm, I still get the little crinkles round my eyes when I laugh. I am very very happy with my decision and happen to think I look fantastic.

Mildly challenging you to think outside your viewpoint is not a comment on your character, it's not a weird personal agenda against you, and it's certainly not 'gaslighting' so please don't use language to suggest that somehow I've behaved inappropriately on this thread. That actually would be gaslighting.
I've contributed and could say more, its actually an interesting subject if we could just get past the focus of criticism of other women, which never sits right with me. A discussion on the root cause of negativity towards aging would have been interesting @RingoJuice made some interesting comments on that.

I disagree with your post. I don’t get Botox - and that is my personal choice and preference (as it is yours) about what I do with MY body.

What is unnecessary is to have opinion about what OTHER women do to their bodies. It would clearly not be ok for a woman who gets Botox to say she thinks other women should do to stop them looking old. But it is equally judgemental for you to say women who get Botox look frozen and expressionless, etc.

I agree that society’s standards around feminine beauty, weight and ageing are damaging. But attacking other women’s choices is not the answer. Women’s bodies are constantly up for comment & judgement in a way that men simply wouldn’t tolerate. It’s no one else’s business what someone else puts in or on their own body - whether that’s Botox, junk food/carbs, weight-loss injections.

The reason you are being met with defensiveness is because you are judging.

You're seeing snobbery where there's none because you're projecting your own misplaced sense of superiority and moral judgement.

Yes, I use good practitioners. Never used the phrase "best injectors" but they're doctors and nurses, so it's a given that they're qualified, and they do right by their patients. Am I supposed to risk a bodge job by a shyster to prove I'm not a snob to the likes of you? Would that be morally superior or just fucking stupid?

Clearly, you want to have Botox but you won't because you put a moral value on it that it doesn't have. But then you become angry because others don't buy your judgement, don't give a shit that you wrongly think it's a moral failing, do it and enjoy the benefits. So you tell them all sorts of crap, up to and including blaming them for society's ills and being snobs for using reputable clinics.

But this is your issue, not mine. Get Botox or don't get Botox, it's up to you, because the problem is 100% yours.

But wanting to remain youthful is not a new concept.
Either way it’s still none of your business or concern what other people do to their own bodies. I’m absolutely baffled by this.

Fair enough.
But you are still saying it is weird. I find that part insulting.
Anyway, I don’t know what the letters mean at the end of your post.

God, the hypocrisy of this post. You're projecting more than Cineworld. Just go and get the Botox you so clearly desperately want and stop subjecting people to this sort of self-awareness-free hogwash. You'll actually be massively disappointed by what a piddling little procedure it is and how little anyone will notice or care. Except those desperate to get it themselves, of course.

This!!!

Exactly this!!

There is never going to be any give for you is there. You will battle to the end shoving your opinion down anyone’s throat is they dare disagree.
Yet I bet you are a huge advocate of free speech.

I'll also add, because of all the "won't someone think of the children" stuff...

Teenagers and young women are influenced by TikTokers, social media influencers, music videos and the like. They're not influenced by middle aged, non-famous women discreetly getting their 11s fixed between work, the school run and the MOT. If you are a morally pure altruist who is just hugely concerned about young women's rights and wellbeing, there are so many other places to start these days that I don't know where to begin. But you're not, so it doesn't matter.

You really are lovely.

I might have to re-use that projection comment - brilliant 😂

Subjecting people - calm down - you know you don’t have to read this.

I'm not the one who started a thread creating a moral catastrophe around a piddling, 20+ years old cosmetic procedure because I can't resolve my desire to get it with my ridiculous belief that it's a moral failing.

Just get the bloody Botox and do us all a favour. And yes, go somewhere good with reputable practitioners. Better a snob than a fucking idiot.

It's not a new concept, but I don't think that makes it okay. I don't care on an individual basis what anyone is doing with their body. I care about the fact a lot of beauty standards are directly driven by patriarchy. Does it truly not bother you that men don't feel the need to spend 100s on beauty treatments, or inject chemicals into their lips?

I’ve actually tried to discuss various aspects throughout the thread, but it’s people like you who are determined to keep insinuating various failings about me. Now I’m being accused of being a free speech advocate..

You say I don’t ‘give’, but I see not any give from you at any point either, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

Rather than keep bashing me, why don’t you offer an actual opinion, instead of just jumping on the narrow bandwagon of PP’s flaming me and then claiming otherwise…?

These procedures do make a difference to others, though. I can't lipread or get the general gist of something said when the face, lips, cheeks, eyes, eyebrows and forehead doesn't move in the way an unmodified face does. Amplifying doesn't solve it, it distorts it, particularly when the individual sounds are also less clear due to the reduced mobility.

And if that's not of any interest to anyone else, maybe babies and children being unable to learn to discern meanings from non-verbal cues - as is normal for child development and language acquisition - could be something worth considering? If people think back to how they communicate with babies, it's very mobile; their focal range is specifically evolved to be able to see all of those expressions and tiny movements, the ones that are deemed to cause undesirable evidence of expression and emotion over time.

Something else that also occurs to me is something that's sometimes said about autism - that the person is 'creepy' or 'emotionless' - which is linked to expressions. That's how vital normal/standard/expected facial expression is, that the absence of usual movements leads human instinct to place people in a category of being different and potentially a risk to safety. It's also something that negatively affects people with facial differences. I think that this is part of the reason why some have such a strong response to it; the results actually trigger a sense of danger/untrustworthiness.

Is it actually worth conforming to external (patriarchal) determined parameters of attractiveness (ie, is she or does she look young enough to fuck? And if so, is there any way she could look even younger than that?) when it actively affects others, particularly children, in a negative way?

Increasing numbers of men do so I’m not sure where to go with your question.

Men do get botox though and have cosmetic procedures. There was also the meme of a plane full of bald men coming back from Turkey after their hair implants.

So whilst I’m saying the beauty standard is as high or the numbers are equal. It’s quite a dim view to say men also don’t spend 100s on beauty.

Honestly though this topic is weird. I don’t care what anyone else chooses to do with their face or body.

Some men do ofc, but the beauty industry is vastly and overwhelming targeted at women, particular anything anti-ageing.

Moral catastrophe, moral failing indeed..😅

I didn’t start a thread in that vein, but you’ve certainly helped to push it in that direction 👍

Accused of being a free speech advocate? It’s really not an accusation is it?

I’ve made my opinion clear if you want to have a look back. My opinion is just that though, my opinion. I don’t expect everyone to agree or even care.

You are continually being passive aggressive and rehashing different versions same argument. I’m not continually bashing you and claiming otherwise. I’m happy to own it. I think you are judgemental and consider your opinion the right one and as such feel superior to those who don’t agree with you. I stand by it.

When I go there’s always men in the waiting room!