Botox & frozen faces

[Expressionless]

If you have Botox to the parts of your face that mean you’ve rendered yourself unable to move large part of your face or have very little movement in your eyebrows / around your eyes, does it not bother you that you essentially look frozen and expressionless?

At the end of the day, most of us, would like to reduce fine lines and wrinkles - we live in a world that holds women to ridiculous youth standards - basically we all feel we shouldn’t age and that an ageing face is the worst possible outcome. But at what cost does this come?

Watching almost all TV / films now means any woman over about 25, maybe 30 at a push essentially has a frozen face and quite literally can’t show emotions properly. Most men don’t do it, so it’s definitely a sexist standard.

Women saying they ‘do it for themselves’ - well okay, but only because you’ve been conditioned to find ageing abhorrent.

Why can’t we just be left the fuck alone, to age and have faces that move and show our expressions and feelings. Like we have for 1,000’s of years.

Plenty men do - but it doesn’t get commented on.

Because it’s only women’s bodies and choices that others feel entitled to judge, mock and criticise. It’s only women who are told how they should “age gracefully”.

That is the real societal issue with the beauty industry - the patriarchal judgement (and sense of entitlement to do so) when it comes to women’s bodies.

Fair enough - and I agree I have rehashed the same point multiple times, but mainly in order to reply to as many posts as I could when dipping in around my day and, like you, mainly with my opinion.

You keep accusing me of being morally superior, because I don’t agree with your opinion, so🤷🏻‍♀️

I absolutely agree that women being told to age gracefully is the flip side of the coin. But the pressure to look young is also bad. Basically, women can't win whatever they do 🤷

Yeah, you really needed my help to accuse women who get Botox of being vain, selfish, unattractive, terrible for children, snobbish and generally morally dubious. Does anyone believe that?

PM me. I won't tell anyone. Tell me your area and I will find a reputable Botox practitioner local to you. I cannot stand this hypocritical, self-awareness-free blowhardness any longer. For all of us, just get the 11s done. You will be so disappointed at what a big deal it isn't and I promise you can still watch sunsets and do yoga and love your husband or whatever the hell you think it takes from you.

Touché

I take you point.

It’s no one else’s business what someone else puts in or on their own body - whether that’s Botox, junk food/carbs, weight-loss injections

Do you think it’s wrong to debate the role of botox and other invasive cosmetic procedures. Should it be a no-go topic? Does a discussion about it mean ‘tearing down’ women?

Agree. It’s so disingenuous to say that the ‘average’ man is getting botox as commonly as women. Celebs, some wealthy City workers, influencers etc yes. But most ordinary men are not getting botox, lip fillers etc in the same numbers that women are. It is very odd to suggest otherwise.

It really depends what you mean by debate. If you mean, do I support someone coming on here and saying “I’m interested in weight loss injections, but worried about the side effects - how has anyone found them?” Or “I’m thinking about Botox but I’m worried I’ll lose too much expression”. Then I 100% support that.

If you’re talking about someone saying “I would never get Botox and I think women who get Botox look horrific, plastic and expressionless - do you agree?” - I don’t support this. I think it’s fuelling the patriarchal rhetoric that women’s bodies (especially ageing women’s bodies) are objects for scrutiny, judgement and derision.

If you’re talking about someone saying “I would never get Botox and I think women who get Botox look horrific, plastic and expressionless - do you agree?” - I don’t support this.

No one said that, in that inflammatory tone (except you) - it’s such a huge exaggeration of anyone’s points.

Do you not use any anti ageing creams / retinols etc?

Even using moisturiser which is intended to keep the skin hydrated, supple and youthful Is just a less extreme way of holding back the clock than botox,

I am in my fifties and been having botox twice a year. Started 3 years ago and i love it. I look fresher and I dont have the frozen look. Friends have told me my skin looks nice and I feel great.

I think its perfectly valid to consider societal expectations of female beauty. Where it gets pretty uncomfortable for me as a woman who wants to support women is the way any conversation about injectables seem to veer into blaming and insulting women's appearance under the guise of feminism.
For all the hyperbolic language about botox (It's a POISON! Well, yup, it's right there in the name!) it's actually a pretty low risk treatment. And since time began people of both sexes have done all manner of things to enhance their appearance often involving something less than optimum for health. Restrictive diets, piercings, high heels, corsets, tattoos, punishing gym schedules, diets overloaded with more protein than kidneys can safely handle...
Injectables are no different in principle to any other thing human beings do to make themselves look 'nice'. And ideally, to follow the argument to its logical conclusion, we shouldn't do any of them, or care whether we look good or not unless we're 'insecure'. Yet I bet there's few on this thread who never try to look good, be it hair style, clothes or make up.
Botox is therefore just a further stage along the same continuum pretty much every one of us is on. Yet people like the OP have taken it upon themselves to draw a line at their own comfort level. Putting holes in your ear lobes/nostrils is ok, putting Injectables in your face is not.
They then try to impose their arbitrary line on other women with a two pronged approach of trying to make them feel guilty for being a bad influence, and telling them their appearance is unsightly. And that's where it goes wrong and the validity of the discussion is compromised.

If the anti Botox crowd really believed that we all look like shit and may as well have BOTOX tattooed across our stretched foreheads, they wouldn't be so angry about it.

There was a brave and attractive young woman on one of these I'm-just-so-worried-about-you-vapid-hags threads a few years ago. She posted a photo of her lovely face and encouraged the pitchforkers to guess what she'd had done. They fell on her of course, telling her how plumped and stretched and shiny she looked and how it was SO OBVIOUS she'd had lip filler and forehead Botox. Except it turned out she hadn't. All she had had was a bit of cheek filler following serious illness (she had had chemo, if memory serves).

What was interesting was how many people told her they could tell because of the "sheen" on her forehead. It was the camera flash! And where did these bozos get the idea that Botox gives you a sheen and makes light come out of your head? It smooths out wrinkles, it doesn't make you bloody radioactive!

What was interesting was how many people told her they could tell because of the "sheen" on her forehead. It was the camera flash! And where did these bozos get the idea that Botox gives you a sheen

It's a well-known side effect. Google botox shine.

You were the one chortling over the notion of botox in the face being near the brain. The FDA have given it a black box warning because of its proximity to the brain and potential for neurological side-effects.

It's not a "side effect" to look different in visible light when you've had a procedure to look different. It was the camera flash and she hadn't had Botox. She had, however, been bullied all her life for her looks because people thought she'd had procedures she hadn't had and never guessed the one she had.

In this instance, it was a camera flash. But Botox shine - shiny forehead, eg Marcia Cross in Desperate Housewives - is a known side-effect of Botox.

I think there’s a difference between a friendly debate and a ‘it looks bad and you are a morally bad person for doing it’.

I think the ‘it looks bad and we can tell u do it’ is an incredibly unhelpful position

Well, yes, shining a light onto a smooth surface will obviously cause shine. But thats all it is, not some mysterious subdermal phenomenon. Its just like a man suffering the 'side- effect' of being bald.

It is a side-effect of Botox use - some women even seek it out.

It is explained here (and elsewhere):

Why Does Botox Make Forehead Look Shiny?

Yes, it explains that as a result of making things smooth light is reflected. My point was, it's not the substance sitting under the skin creating an alien like glow from within as some people seem to think. It's basic physics.

It is a result of excessive muscle contraction. Ergo, it is a side-effect of Botox when used by some practitioners on some women. However, the doctor answering that question also mentioned the effect of Botox on the pilosebaceous units and the piloerector muscles of the actual skin.

The pilosebaceous unit is a complex structure in the skin that includes a hair follicle, sebaceous gland, and arrector pili muscle, playing a crucial role in hair growth and skin lubrication.

Piloerector muscles, also known as arrector pili muscles, are small smooth muscles attached to hair follicles that cause hair to stand on end, resulting in the phenomenon known as goosebumps.

So, it is not simply the skin is smoothed out.

Not every woman develops a super shiny forehead, or a prominent forehead vein, but both are known side-effects of Botox.

My point was, it's not the substance sitting under the skin creating an alien like glow from within as some people seem to think. It's basic physics.

No-one is suggesting that. And as above, it is more than just 'basic physics'.

People actually have suggested this, albeit not on this thread. People who wouldn't touch botox with a barge pole, no interest, totally 'secure', you see, always seem to claim a detailed knowledge of the ins and outs of it, much of which is incorrect.
Yes, I read the parts you quoted. They are explaining why the skin is so smooth it reflects light.

There really is not point in trying to point out reality on these sorts of threads. People are so invested and defensive of this product, you would think they must have masses of shares in the manufacturers.

I wonder about that. People who do a lot of skin tightening procedures also get a shiny look.