Botox & frozen faces

[Expressionless]

If you have Botox to the parts of your face that mean you’ve rendered yourself unable to move large part of your face or have very little movement in your eyebrows / around your eyes, does it not bother you that you essentially look frozen and expressionless?

At the end of the day, most of us, would like to reduce fine lines and wrinkles - we live in a world that holds women to ridiculous youth standards - basically we all feel we shouldn’t age and that an ageing face is the worst possible outcome. But at what cost does this come?

Watching almost all TV / films now means any woman over about 25, maybe 30 at a push essentially has a frozen face and quite literally can’t show emotions properly. Most men don’t do it, so it’s definitely a sexist standard.

Women saying they ‘do it for themselves’ - well okay, but only because you’ve been conditioned to find ageing abhorrent.

Why can’t we just be left the fuck alone, to age and have faces that move and show our expressions and feelings. Like we have for 1,000’s of years.

No, not necessarily. Though some may do if they are heterosexual and want to attract a partner, as they may see their appearance as a factor in the size of their dating pool. Which of course, it tends to be. However, there are others who have procedures because they prefer to see their own face without the changes caused by aging. Aging does not always result in signs of a 'life well lived' sometimes it alters the expression so that people look miserable or like they're constantly frowning when they're not and they seek to adjust that. Others say that if they look younger they are taken more seriously at work, so there could be financial drivers.
My point was not that its conscious man pleasing, but that while men continue to value younger women over older ones, life will be challenging for women as they age, because men hold so much power and influence and their values are the ones that shape society. So it's naive and over simplistic to feel women can solve the problem of youth fetishism simply by refusing to buy in to anti aging. If you choose to shun it, the ageism against you will carry on regardless.

The bit I've wondered with Botox is when do you let it go?

I can see it works well for mid 40s to perhaps mid 50s but then after that, at what point do you say sod it?

Do you just stop topping it up but then is that a major change?

You can see from celebrities that women can now look incredible into their 50s but beyond this, even with the most expensive options available, they all start to look very false.

So I'm just interested for those who start, how do you see it ending? Because that's really what puts me off.

I have a resting miserable face thanks to marionette lines. I hate that I look so awful. I have just started sculptra, so hoping this works.
I have had one session, but will need 3-4.

And why should women be as slovenly and disgusting as those types of men? We have higher standards and I’m tired of apologizing for that.

So we’re slovenly and disgusting as ‘those men’ if we don’t get tweaks and follow the anti-ageing rhetoric..

I've had botox in my 11s for over 20 years because I was tired of being asked why I was frowning. I stopped about 5 years ago at around age 50 as I became vegan and botox isn't vegan. I now have faint lines, but far shallower than would have been the case had I continued to have resting frowning face all those years. As much as this will be unpopular on an anti treatment thread, the fact is, botox is preventative. Because if you stop the face from screwing itself up, it's not going to develop lines in those areas. Like the difference between trousers in a press and scrunched up in a drawer.

Honestly I don't know. I do agree that the older you are, the harder it is because the lines are more conspicuously missing. I'm still just about young enough that it doesn't look off that I don't have 11s (which is all I get done. My face fell in a few years ago after a horrific life event and I just wanted to stop looking sad and angry all the time even if I still felt it. I don't look younger and I'm not trying to, I just no longer look like I'm permanently shattered and furious).

I get the minimum dose every 12-18 months, basically when I feel I start to need it. If I decide that I don't like the effect any more, I won't do it. I also really trust my practitioners, they are doctors and nurses and they really, really do not let people start to look ridiculous. I think many posters here would be very surprised by how ordinary the people in the waiting room look. Obviously I don't know what procedure they're all having but Botox is the most popular.

I've been told by superior people that once I start, my endless shallowness and vanity will mean I can't stop, but this has been it for about 6 years now so I think I'm morally intact and no uglier than I'd be if I still had those deep lines. I suspect that what I do, which probably counts as "baby Botox" will keep me looking as good for my age as it always has, so I'll obviously age and look older, just not tired and angry older.

There is actually only so much that Botox can do. It's not surgery. The effect people tend to go on about is caused not just by excessive Botox but also fillers and surgery.

I’ve had it before, for a line that developed from frowning in pain and stayed after the pain was resolved
haven’t had it for about 7 years now and there was no drastic change

I probably will have it again, not to look younger but it stops people saying “are you ok/you look tired” yes I’m fine but it’s just my resting grumpy face!

34 with Botox, 41 without

Just turned 67, have been having botox since shortly before my 50th, no frozen face, just very few wrinkes and a fresh, rested look.
Mind you I only go to fully qualified medical doctors who specialise in aesthetics/dematology and would not freeze me, even if I begged them!

Chasing youth is a fool's errand. You are setting yourself up to fail. We all grow old, we should embrace it and chase internal wellness instead.

For me, I really dislike the wave of "leave me alone, its my choice!" answers...

Yes it is your choice, but you don't live in isolation. You impact the next generation of girls, and the message you are sending to them is:

Your beauty = your value
Age = BAD!

It isn't surprising that the aging procedures, skin-care routines, surgeries, and interventions have been getting younger and younger. That isn't some random coincidence. It is a cycle caused by older women having treatment, and then the women slightly young.. then slightly younger. And gradually the acceptable age that you should look gets reduced and reduced, example set and example followed.

So sure, do what you want with your body. But don't be in any doubt that you are contributing to the next 22 year old who wants it done, or in a decade, the 20 year old, 19 year old etc.

I don't know if it's botox or plastic surgery, but an awful lot of "famous" people look almost indistinguishable nowadays.

If someone wants to look that way, it's up to them I suppose.

Agreed. I work in an industry where youth is equated with being good at the job. It’s not going to change any time soon.
if only Botox would remove my worst wrinkles - I metabolise so quickly I get no long lasting impact at all.

My point (which you willfully misinterpreted) is that people try to shame us by saying men don’t do this … but why should we compare ourselves to men? Many of them don’t seem to care how they look. This isn’t a good thing.

This is the core of the issue🔍

I haven’t missed the point - it’s just your point is rather vile, describing ‘these men’ in that way is just as bad. You’re here comparing to ‘these men’ - they are your words and your wilful misinterpretation..

I’ve pointed out that women are not held to the same youth and beauty standards as (most) men. That doesn’t then equate to men being slovenly and disgusting if they don’t also follow suit - what a strange argument.

We hold ourselves to higher standards. That’s a good thing.

Men often let themselves go because they fundamentally don’t care what other people think about their appearance. I don’t think that’s a good thing tbh. But you’ll note that higher status men DO in fact keep themselves to higher standards. It’s signaling something positive about them.

And you opined that I missed the point..

Women don’t hold themselves to higher standards because it’s “good”; they do it because the social penalty for not conforming is huge. Calling that a virtue mistakes coping with sexism for moral superiority.

I have it done and it makes me feel a bit more confident. Only have lines under my eyes done and Botox definitely does not eliminate them completely just softens them so more of a subtle difference really.
Didn’t start Botox till my 40s don’t think you need it before then tbh.

Okay 🤷🏻‍♀️

I like the way I look, and I like Botox. If other people don’t like either then that’s fine. They don’t have to.

“The pressure placed on women by society to look young and not commit the sin of aging is of concern to all women.”

I agree with this.

Previously it was a good haircut or getting your eyebrows done, or a new outfit to enhance ourselves, but retaining our own unique appearance and character. This was less invasive and expensive.

Nowadays the goal posts have moved and the “expectations” or “beauty standards” have changed. The pressure to conform to these, especially in certain industries eg tv/media is huge and mostly aimed at women. Men are not held to the same harsh standards.

The more women who decide to have these invasive treatments, even if they choose to do it for themselves, the more pressure there is on other women to conform too. It is effectively good marketing, by companies praying on women’s insecurities.

another problem is the cost of the treatments. None of these invasive treatments are cheap, and most of them require ongoing maintenance on the one hand people are complaining about the cost of living, on the other hand people are spending hundreds of pounds on injecting substances into their faces to halt the inevitable .

I don’t judge people for having these treatments, I haven’t had any, but I do understand the pressure and wanting to like what you see in the mirror. I can always tell when anyone has had even subtle treatments though, because it’s normal to have a few lines on your forehead or around your eyes.

In some respect, I wish we could go back to the old days where there was less pressure on how people looked, and everyone had their own individual quirks, but I don’t think that is likely to happen any time soon.

Maybe you should give your pets Botox.

Exactly this.

Botox doesn't make people look younger/less old. It makes them look unnaturally taut and plasticky.

Mostly, it makes them look uneven. Forehead of a 25 year old. Hands and neck of a 45 year old.

Not sure what all the fussing is about then. If treatments make people look awful then young women are not going to emulate them and aging women aren't going to feel pressure to have them. Everyone will just be looking at all the odd plastic old women and thinking thank goodness that's not compulsory. So a non issue. Yet strangely one the anti procedures people can't seem to leave alone.

Botox doesn't make people look younger/less old. It makes them look unnaturally taut and plasticky

That's not true though is it. As pps have said, all Botox is not equal. Yes you see people who go for the fake look and get weird taut shiny foreheads. There was a great example of this on Strictly last night - one celeb who was emoting with the bottom half of her face but not the top. I wouldn't choose that for myself but that's up to her isn't it .. same goes for obviously fake boobs/eyelashes/lips etc.

But far more common nowadays is the "baby Botox" look which involves more gentle "smoothing out" and also acts as a preventative against getting deeper lines. Celeb-wise, the Duchess of Cambridge is a good example of this type of botox and she doesn't usually get accused of looking "plasticky" or fake. That's what the best injectors and unlimited cash can do though!