Sick of the lie 'It's just illegal immigrants people don't like.'

[Slightyamusedandsilly]

This is just not true.

Reform, the flag flyers and protesters are racists. All of this 'It's just the illegals we want gone.' is a lie to excuse their racism.

That’s not true. We are told often that people arriving have connections here.

According to Care 4 Calais, the main reason many refugees continue their journey to the UK is because of family connections.

It’s entirely rational to try to get to the UK even with greater cost and some risk. There’s healthcare, accommodation and help. Much more than a camp elsewhere.

So you think family members here are encouraging those abroad to pay a smuggler to come here?

Would you be encouraging family members abroad to make this journey?

Calais was the primary charity working in Calais in "the jungle". They worked with those who chose to make the dinghy journey across the Chanel despite being advised in France of the laws, risks etc.

Yes, many do say they have family in the UK (as perhaps they are advised it can improve their chances of staying).

Also - if you've paid a smuggler your life savings to get you to England are you going to stop in France? The jungle was horrendous...

i think you and I both agree there may be compelling reasons to leave your country and then again, to try to get to the UK as opposed to staying in France.

There aren't a ton of safe places across the world for people fleeing war to go to where they can have an actual life (education, safety, work)...

I'm not entirely sure why you believe people within the UK are encouraging them to come? We all know what the journey is like and what life looks like when they get here. We all know the mood of the country...

The more obvious truth is that most of those on boats are desperate people that have been misled by smugglers and promised a new life they aren't going to have.

That doesn't mean some of them may have "family" in the UK but the truth of those connections has always felt dubious to me.

Yes I do and I would too. If I knew someone suffering in Syria / Sudan / Eritrea and had the money to get here I would advise on how to do that.

If you were in the same position I think you’d choose the UK if you could too, most would over refugee camps or tents elsewhere. It’s not an irrational choice. It’s healthcare, schooling if needed and accommodation.

Are you saying you've got family abroad and you're encouraging them to pay smugglers to get here?

Why not have them come via legal routes?

Or encourage them to go elsewhere that's more culturally compatible

What? No it’s hypothetical 😬

I said if I had arrived here as an asylum seeker I would encourage people I know to do the same and tell them how. Because the U.K. offers safety, healthcare, schooling and accommodation.

I am not in that position and don’t know anyone who needs to leave Sudan etc personally.

It still makes sense that people with connections talk about how to get here.

I'd love for you to tell me where these countries are?

Neighbouring countries take in heaps.

But Muslims people ( for example) are running out of safe places to go as many of these countries are bombed at will by the West or Russia... Justified because they are harbouring terrorists or are terrorist governments or holding weapons of mass destruction. The countries end up in rubble and we complain about foreign aid... Foreign aid is a highly effective way to stop people turning up at our borders.

But bigger thinking....is it any wonder Muslims displaced across the globe from war don't want to return to living in them?

Can be safe today and bombed tomorrow.

Even Qatar (the gulf states were previously considered untouchable) was recently bombed.

I get the "not our problem" attitude. But you can't change human nature. People want to survive and thrive. You can deal with them at our borders but you need larger thinking to stop them coming at all.

The gulf states are fine. With the Qatar thing, I think only 6 people died. And no civilians.

Statistics are tricky... But the idea that people only come here and no other countries take refugees is just bonkers.

Since conflict broke out in 2015... These are primarily Syrian

Lebanon has circa 1.5 million
Jordan has circa 660,00
Turkey has circa 3.3 million
Saudi doesn't officially host refugees but has circa 500,000 Syrians on various visas. They do provide hundreds of millions in aid.

That's the displacement from the Syrian conflict.

All statistics need taking with a pinch of salt. But most reliable suggest about 30,000 Syrians have successfully claimed asylum in the UK.

Of course we have also had Afghan conflict. Ukrainian conflict. Amongst others... So it can feel like we have constant streams of seekers at the border.

People will seek sanctuary - the world is shite. You can make it miserable when they get here but it won't stop them from coming.

In the same way people here want a good life, so do these people.

Again - not saying we should take them all in. We do have a limit.

But they do go elsewhere

A citizen has a clear definition. I think "naturalised citizenship" is the topical question of the day, isn't it? Indefinite leave to remain. Being currently 5 years but probably that will change. I think you have to demonstrate good character to get citizenship or you're out. So that would apply if they committed a crime while on that probation period.

Being a citizen of a country should give greater standing in that country than a non citizen.

Perhaps they should stay and fight for a better tomorrow? Like Ukrainian men?

Indefinite Leave to Remain and Naturalised Citizen are two different things.

But does that mean you place born and naturalised citizens on the same level?

And what of non-citizens who have only ever known the UK as a home?

There are Ukranian male asylum seekers but the bulk who stayed were forced to.

(Also quite a difference between an invading foreign force and having to flee your own government.)

No matter how many times tell them they will insist we are taking “most” refugees when actually that burden is being felt by neighbouring countries.

Perhaps they should.

Then again, not all people are good at killing others?

Maybe some don't believe in the cause you expect them to fight for. Maybe, for example in a recent conflict, they're against what Hamas stands for?

Lots of Ukrainian men have claimed asylum. I don't judge them for it.

Maybe join a resistance group against the government?

Yes - war is just that simple.

Stay and fight!

If you don't believe in it, form a resistance!

You can fight their guns and technology with your forks and knives.

The human instinct to survive is generally greater than their concern with being called a coward.

Just curious - are you a part of the military here? I'd presume you're in active service since you think it's a natural life choice.

We spend more per person arriving. There’s greater provision here than in many of those places listed.

Not really. Naturalised citizen requires you to live in the country for a period of 5 years. Same as ILTR. In essence they are.very similar and I can't really get hyped up about discussing the difference.

Yes to the first no to the second. Citizenship must carry some benefits over non citizens otherwise what's the point. If you've lived here your whole life and want to stay why not apply for a British passport. And if you don't want to (which is fine) then you just have to lump it.

I think this conversation has passed on now. Im fairly sure this has been discussed ad nauseum and we get people saying but I want to keep my own passport etc! Got no views on that. So there you go.

You’re right it’s not just the “illegal immigrants” people don’t like.people also don’t like people who refuse to integrate and accept British culture. People don’t like their local communities, facilities and traditions being changed by these people who refuse to integrate. People don’t like two tier policing. People are fed up of being called racist or Islamic when they raise very valid concerns

People are allowed to shout out the impact of non- integration within their communities. If people moving up the UK had just accepted western culture, language clothing, tradition and values there wouldn’t be a problem

Not military at all. But surely if Britain was attacked or under threat we'd expect the men of the country to take a stand and fight for a better future for our country?

Or maybe you'd expect our actual trained army to defend us? And our allies to support us?

I truly don't understand the viewpoint that Bob from accounting is going to become an adept soldier because his country has been invaded. Bob from accounting is a useful human shield but more likely - a liability in combat.

War today isn't fought on the battlefield with rules of engagement. It's air strikes and drone targeting. Snipers and technology. It's not walls of people with guns marching towards one another on a field.

If the numbers we needed had to increase?

That would be quite funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. Have you noticed the rather high body count in Ukraine? And how tiny our army is.I'd hope we'd put up a bit of a fight rather than lie down and be raped by invading soldiers? The British do stick up for themselves eventually.

Or perhaps it will be a sectarian civil war the rate we are going.

Exactly. Thanks