Sick of the lie 'It's just illegal immigrants people don't like.'

[Slightyamusedandsilly]

This is just not true.

Reform, the flag flyers and protesters are racists. All of this 'It's just the illegals we want gone.' is a lie to excuse their racism.

And people say "oh the empire and colonialism".

@RingoJuice Most sensible post on here!

Admitting out loud that immigration is meant to feel like a punishment …

Do you see yourself as part of that problem?

Where do you draw the line? What of naturalised citizens? People who arrived as babies? Etc.

(by the way, if you actually WANT prosperity in your country, you will need those billionaires to start making things in the UK again. You cannot tax your way to prosperity)

While lower cost locations exist this is not possible.

Imagine comparing colonialism to legal migration.

Embarrassing.

I hate this, ‘a few edge cases like this might happen, so let’s just not do a measure that would obviously improve the immigration system’ like do you hear yourself?

There are a lot of advantages being based in Britain, but the more taxes you levy on them, the less and less attractive it becomes.

If you hate billionaires, I guess you don’t see that as a problem. But then the very same people love to depend on the taxes those same people have paid?

Whose pockets will you pilfer once they leave?

I am well integrated. But being in London I can directly see the lack of integration.

The vast majority of the increase in numbers is legal migration. You cannot tackle all the problems people cite (pressure on resources, housing, community change) without tackling legal migration too.

So you are a special unicorn - different to the mass you arrived with.

Of course.

Yes (and I live in London).

The bulk of my social life sees me out, “on my own, after dark”.

(I also run in the evenings, on my own, after dark.)

I think a lot of people conflate immigrants wanting to come the UK with where the smugglers bring them. It's not like booking a plane ticket!

How people imagine conversations with smugglers go:

The people on boats are given a lengthy and balanced consultation with their smugglers where they have a cup of tea, map out the pros and cons and explain the risks versus rewards of this undertaking. The smugglers explain the political mood in the UK and that the British public is angry about the routes to England they offer.

Oh but you have no home, all your schools have been bombed, you have no chance of a job, you only have this little money and hope. Ok, the smugglers say - we will try to help you.

If you survive the journey we offer to France - we will then put you on a dinghy - they then carefully explain the weather and how different a dinghy is from a boat.

They further explain that they really should claim asylum in France as it's also a safe country and English people are angry they don't do that.

But, sure if you want to pay me three times as much for the journey to England as you would to France... I will help you.

How conversations with Smugglers go:

Pay us this money and we'll get you to England. You definitely won't die. You'll be put up in a hotel there while they assess your claim. Make sure to get rid of all your ID as that will help your claim. Thanks for your life savings.

The issue is not the people coming - it's the smugglers bringing them here.

Do you really think the people going back have so much to go back to?

I said nothing about taxes nor hating billionnaire so put the strawman away.

I was pointing out the problem with your statement that billionnaires will build things in the UK if they are not taxed. The UK is a higher cost location irrespective of tax. What you suggest would not bring prosperity as salaries would need to plummet to compete with low cost locations.

My aunt lives in London, she was home last week, she has lived in London over 50 years, she said it is unrecognisable now. Most of her neighbour are gone.
She is in a council property and is hoping to transfer up north.
I get the irony an Irish woman in a UK council property.
Her 3 DC are professionals so it balances out.

Wages are actually a little bit low in the UK, especially for the sectors that actually build things. Most places do not have the kind of infrastructure to be attractive for manufacturing and the like.

I know it's benefited me and my family individually. But has UK society as a whole benefited? Has it really? Some places do need better integration. Some people in my area cannot speak English. In some places train station signs need to be in Bengali/Urdu. That is not okay

The part of your post where you state what people think is incorrect anyway, hardly anyone imagines this, but of course people coming are keen on the U.K.

They often have connections here who can let them know how to do it and what it’s like.

I think people are in countries are keen to escape their dreadful existences and smugglers exploit this and traffic them here.

They arrive here and the consensus is we should not give a toss about them either.

I consider them victims of human trafficking - they have been misled about promises for a better life etc.

You can be trafficked and still be horrible by the way. I am not saying we should let them all stay.

But being angry at the people who have been exploited simply for daring to find a better life and turning up at our borders is the utmost of British privilege.

Do we benefit from having them here?

No they have more agency than that. People are aware from connections already here what it’s like. They have the ability to find out info, of course they do. Why do you think people don’t talk about it?

I don’t blame them for making the choice they do, it’s rational, the U.K. is one of the best places to try to get to.

On the last part I don’t think the public will accept the high numbers who would like to have a better life here, as rational as that is.

The big problem here is the fact that a lot of people who are anti Reform instantly lump every single Reform supporter and everyone who says anything anti immigration as a right wing racist.

This is absolutely untrue. Are there a lot of racists out there, yes absolutely and those people should be called out, however there is little point in wasting your breath trying to debate them, they have their views and will stick to them.

The people who need to be convinced are those who feel they have legitimate concerns but are not outright racist. They are the people who can be debated and talked to. When you call them racist however they just feel like this is society proving them right and makes them more likely to sway to the right.

Reform have said themselves they won't remove or touch naturalised citizens.

I think you are a bit optimistic about the level of education and connection those who arrive on boats have.

The refugees I know (and who came here "legally") had the family connections and financial means to employ lawyers and enter the country by totally different means. They would never ever take the risks those people do.

The very poorest will never leave their countries of origin.

Those who come on the boats are those with some money but no real connections to England or legal awareness of the things we consider basic (like why they should claim asylum in the first safe country).

99% of these people are trafficked under false pretenses. You might not feel empathy for them, but I do.

And I can feel that empathy and understand that we can not let them all stay... But keep in mind when our nation contributes to a war and refuses to deal with any of the human consequences... extremist views do form.

The political focus seems to be on making a miserable life even more miserable. We send them back and hope there are no consequences.

Smugglers get paid and cycle repeats.

Smugglers are the issue - but no political will to tackle that.

Foreign aid can also improve their lives and give them less reason to try and leave. But need to look after those at home first rhetoric etc

The real solutions are not easy or quick fixes.