to think we're all being manipulated

[newbluesofa]

I'm going to get flamed by reform voters here, and I think it'll come off as thinking I'm smarter than everyone but I genuinely don't, which is why I'm so confused by this.

To me, it is incredibly obvious that we are being completely manipulated by politicians and the media. They want us to blame immigrants and people who claim benefits for their failing to run the country properly. And it's worked.

I don't think we should have unregulated immigration, there are issues that need to be addressed. But there's a difference between sensibly discussing immigration from an economic point, and the nasty hate and vitriol that's everywhere now. It is what they WANT. As long as we're fighting amongst ourselves, no one is looking up at the people with the real power and money.

One example, newspapers describing immigrants as 'fighting age men'. 'Fighting' is not an age. Young men could also be fit, healthy, and able to work and contribute. They say 'fighting age' to scaremonger and promote anti immigrant rhetoric, and it works as people parrot the line.

It's always been the way that the ruling class look for ways to keep the masses infighting. Honestly I lose respect at anyone that falls for it. I don't get how it isn't so obvious to others, how can you not see you're being played?

To get operations done you would need to have about 30,000.pounds to cover all eventualities. I know someone who had knee surgery in the UK but lived in America and that's what they had to do.
The 340 million will be for AandE and urgent care. Stuff like, someone breaking their leg while in the UK and needing it pinned and then not paying (I was going to say run of without paying but probably not). It's harder to gain the system now than it was because airlines are stricter about letting heavily pregnant/seriously ill people fly.
There are scams. Eg some around illegal organ donation where the donar pretends to be a family member to get round rules on buying organs. Or surrogacy where "altruistic" surrogates carry someone else's child but all the costs of healthcare are born by the NHS. I'm uncomfortable with that, especially because the people paying for surrogacy are rich. And because surrogacy carries more complications than normal pregnancy. But it's not migrants doing the scamming.

The birth rate is falling. Why would the NHS invest in services with diminishing demand?

My mistake! So she's another person who didn't take advantage of the NHS! I am sure there are people that did.** But most migrants and visitors to the UK aren't trying to game the system. Even the ones that do use NHS care.

**Though I can't find any examples apart from KBs mother and it turns out I was wrong there.

Here’s the data you need on rape and SA stats https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/sexualoffencesinenglandandwalesoverview/march2022

85% of female victims knew their attacker.

This is what we should be shouting about.
No assault is acceptable. It’s facile to say that I’m suggesting we accept a level of collateral damage. I’m trying to point out to you that reaching a zero point of attacks requires understanding where the real crisis is. Following your logic leads us to getting rid of all men in the UK being the way to solve the problem. No men present, all rapes prevented. I mean, it’s one way to do it but it might come across as a bit extreme to assume all men are rapists (although there are schools of feminism that do take that stance)

YANBU

The government clearly don’t want the boats to stop and mass migration serves them in some way.

Big question is what are they (and those pulling strings) actually up to and WHY?

You’re not actually serious?? The birth rate may be falling but women are still giving birth and need healthcare.

We’re not arguing ‘it’s shit so let’s make it e shit’. We are arguing that ‘it’s shit, but not for the reasons you think it’s shit’. If we completely closed our borders, the NHS would still struggle. There is no single cause and no magical solution.

It could be the same reasoning that Biden had - that immigrants are more likely to vote Labour (they think)?

Muslim areas sometimes have bloc voting organised by community leaders so if Labour keep them on side (see Angela Rayners utterly sycophantic meeting with all male Muslim leaders) thru think it benefits them. They have missed the fact that Muslim groups are starting to put forward their own candidates on an Islamic platform to shape things in their favour.

But spending an unnecessary £500 million per year isn’t going to make it less shit.

And PPs minimising that absolutely are making the argument I described.

‘15% of rapists are not known to their victim so it’s fine to let more in.’

That’s not the compelling argument you think it is.

Are you serious?

Thank you for being gracious. I may have been a bit sharp.

I’m not suggesting people are all trying to game the system - its just that they are not paying their bills and that is to our detriment.

Indeed, though I don’t think it’s just short term thinking RE votes. I’ve moved beyond thinking it’s all incompetence. The cumulative actions of the govt over the past year seem to amount to a systematic dismantling of the UK that can only be by design. They are far more driven by ideological zealotry than they like to portray. They certainly don’t work for us and don’t have the nations welfare in mind. It’s extremely unsettling.

That’s not the argument I’m making.
Plus that 15% are not all migrants in hotels.
No rape or SA is ok. None. If you want to stop it, you need to look at the cause. And that’s the point of this thread. It’s easy to misdirect the focus.

Yes, but a lot of the unpaid bills are basically an admin thing. I experienced this myself and, back when we were in the EU, I had friends with an EHIC card who needed NHS treatment. They didn't want to see her card! When what was supposed to happen under the EHIC system is they take the details, and bill the other country for treatment. Every other EHIC country does this fuss free. But because NHS hospitals didn't they weren't being refunded. That wasn't EU citizens ripping the NHS off! And just reforming the system and taking the card details would have been easier than leaving!

The same here. Bills going unpaid is a problem but actually taking payment for those bills is a better method. A lot of it isn't down to fraud.

I don't like Badenoch but I'm sorry for smearing her. Partly I was being snide, but also I did want to find a genuine example of someone coming into the UK just for treatment. I'm sure it happened/happens sometimes. As I said- non urgent preplanned operations need to be paid for in advance anyway. Childbirth doesn't count but it's hard to fly into the country when heavily pregnant or ill with another disease you want the NHS to treat. So it's harder to pull that scam because plane companies don't want to deal with labour/organ failure mid flight.

(She was Romanian and she was very cross about it)

My housekeeping lady flew her mother here, bags packed for the hospital when she needed her gall bladder removed. She simply presented at A&E in chronic pain, of which was not categorically life saving but given her ‘pain levels’ she was operated on that evening, it worked perfectly.

She returned later to have another ‘emergency’ operation on her back. She wasn’t asked to pay (she is polish) These operations would be extortionately expensive in Krakow. I was told ‘everyone’ does it… which was interesting, she leaves her dc in Poland with her family and claims child benefit here too. I think the public just have no idea to be honest.

You can take the Eurostar any day of the week heavily pregnant… or the channel tunnel or a ferry. No need for a dingy my friend.

But then we are talking about Europeans. French, German, Dutch women are unlikely to be travelling all the way to the UK to give birth. There are countries further afield with less food healthcare but I can't imagine them traveling hundreds of miles by car just to give birth. Either our health system is terrible/failing or it is so amazing women from East Europe or further afield will take the train across Europe to give birth in our hospitals.

Your cleaners mothers story is more likely. But in which case there is nothing to stop the NHS bringing a bill to her bed! Presumably the way other countries do? They have a health service in Poland, but if you want to go private it costs about 1500-3000 to have a gall bladder removed. I think your cleaner is being a bit cheeky when she says it's massively cheaper than traveling all the way to the UK when you factor in travel costs etc.

But then we are talking about Europeans. French, German, Dutch women are unlikely to be travelling all the way to the UK to give birth. There are countries further afield with less good healthcare but I can't imagine them traveling hundreds of miles by car just to give birth. Either our health system is terrible/failing or it is so amazing women from East Europe or further afield will take the train across Europe to give birth in our hospitals.

Your cleaners mothers story is more likely. But in which case there is nothing to stop the NHS bringing a bill to her bed! Presumably the way other countries do? They have a health service in Poland, but if you want to go private it costs about 1500-3000 to have a gall bladder removed. I think your cleaner is being a bit cheeky when she says it's massively cheaper than traveling all the way to the UK when you factor in travel costs etc.

Do you think it’s only ‘Europeans’ that travel from Europe to the UK? 🫩🫩 JFC you would test the patience of a saint…

It cost her mother £38 with easy jet, granted it was a 3am flight, but still saved her tens of thousands. And no they didn’t bring a bill to her bed!!

So just to understand this. It's non Europeans living in Europe who are coming to the UK for childbirth and other operations? Who don't want to/can't use European hospitals to do this. If they are refugees in the asylum process or legal residents they would qualify for medical care there. If not, they would struggle to get to the UK by Eurostar etc because you go through passport control and need a visa.
I can believe it happens sometimes. But the specific scenarios you describe don't make sense.

What do you suggest we do with pregnant women? Send them to a vet?

It is definitely all VERY unsettling.