to think we're all being manipulated

[newbluesofa]

I'm going to get flamed by reform voters here, and I think it'll come off as thinking I'm smarter than everyone but I genuinely don't, which is why I'm so confused by this.

To me, it is incredibly obvious that we are being completely manipulated by politicians and the media. They want us to blame immigrants and people who claim benefits for their failing to run the country properly. And it's worked.

I don't think we should have unregulated immigration, there are issues that need to be addressed. But there's a difference between sensibly discussing immigration from an economic point, and the nasty hate and vitriol that's everywhere now. It is what they WANT. As long as we're fighting amongst ourselves, no one is looking up at the people with the real power and money.

One example, newspapers describing immigrants as 'fighting age men'. 'Fighting' is not an age. Young men could also be fit, healthy, and able to work and contribute. They say 'fighting age' to scaremonger and promote anti immigrant rhetoric, and it works as people parrot the line.

It's always been the way that the ruling class look for ways to keep the masses infighting. Honestly I lose respect at anyone that falls for it. I don't get how it isn't so obvious to others, how can you not see you're being played?

Christ @Nestingbirds. I’m so sorry you believe all that. It clearly bothers you. But the statistics will tell you otherwise. There are not packs of immigrant men attacking women in the streets. There are partners, husbands, ex partners, ex husbands stalking, abusing and killing the women in their lives though. Not that any grooming gangs are ok, but there are white grooming gangs too. The problem of grooming of vulnerable children isn’t racially driven.
We are not at breaking point. NHS and housing waiting lists are long because of years of under investment and underfunding. It’s complex and many are complicit in manipulating funding streams to their own ends. If you have no houses to rent locally - who’s making money out of that? Blaming immigrants is the easy option. Please don’t believe it. The original poster isn’t saying they are being lied to. They are saying that there is a conscious effort to present events in a way to support a dangerous agenda.
And I don’t live in the outer Hebrides. I live and work in inner city London.

Just a minor point, but why mention race when the poster didn't? I'm not agreeing with their post as such, just interested in why yours brought race into it specifically.

@Setenv the post I was replying to refers to Rotherham grooming gangs.

Well you might be happy in inner city London but where we live we are most certainly not happy at all. The NHS has billions pumped into it, it’s certainly not under investment! We have run out of housing stock, GPs, hospital beds, social care capacity but you keep telling us it’s the multinationals causing the problem?! Jesus Christ.

If you consider the country back in 1970 and you look at it now, it’s barely recognisable. Back then most people went to church. We knew all of our neighbours well enough to call them friends. We cooked everything from scratch with everything grown here. Shared values were a given and life had a simplicity about it that is hard to recreate, I am personally horrified by the loss of so much. This subject is far bigger and broader - with such depth.

I lived through the 1970s and look back on it with great fondness but shared values were not a given. The National Front and IRA were active, the general public were furious at the unions over The Winter of Discontent. Youth culture rose up against society in the Punk movement. Football hooliganism was rife. Womens' Lib protesters marched in London. Anti apartheid, CND, animal rights, campaigns against police racism.......I could go on.

Vesta curries, TV dinners, Angel Delight, Smash, Arctic roll, Findus crisy pancakes, Heinz spaghetti hoops and shops like Bejam and Iceland meant nobody needed to cook everything from scratch.

Nearly half our food was imported in the 1970s. Cocoa, tea, coffee, bananas, rice, Danish bacon, New Zealand lamb.......again, I could go on.

I am out of this tin hat conspiracy theorist thread, mainly with utter exasperation that some see the issues we are facing now as a storm in a tea cup, whipped up by the media and multinationals/ politicians to suit their agendas. It’s just madness. Even the mathematical argument they can not seem to tolerate or just pure common sense. Almost cult like in the lack of critical thinking skills.

Apparently there is nothing to see here. It’s pure gas lighting 101. Even those that source their own information, don’t watch the news and make up their own minds, are accused of the same thing. The overwhelming majority in this countdy believe immigration is too high, and action needs to be taken, and I agree.

The overwhelming majority in this countdy believe immigration is too high, and action needs to be taken, and I agree.

Nobody on this thread is denying that action needs to be taken to control immigration. Everyone, OP included, is agreeing with you on that.

It didn't say anything about race though (and from everything I've read about those gangs, culture was far more relevant, although yes far from the only culture to have a huge problem with mistreating women and yes cultures with that problem are attached to many different races).

I'm just a bit wary of treating people as having been racist and needing to be educated with "white people are just as bad" type responses, because we "just know" that's what they really meant, when actually that often isn't what people really mean.

You’re missing the point, which OP has stated a couple of times. Yes, immigration is a huge problem. But we can’t have a sensible discussion about it because of the division between the working population. Your comment shows it happening in real time. You’re too angry to actually take in what OP is really saying.

Okay I’ll try again

We all agree immigration is too high, I am assuming op is not implying the thousands we can see physically arriving are actually there, and not a collective figment of everyone’s imagination?

Secondly, it seems op accepts nothing much is being done about it, let’s be honest less than nothing is being done about it now. The current government are not even making the smallest of efforts to address it. Actively avoiding the issue I would say.

We know hundreds if not thousands of hotels are now housing and catering for these people for months/years on end. Luxuries many of the tax payers paying for all this can never afford. I assume you realise some people can not afford three meals a day? Or heating? Maybe you have no idea of hardship who knows.

So now it boils down to op being upset that there appears to be ‘division’ and ‘anger’ over this? Is it any surprise when people have been expecting the leaders of this country to control this growing problem for at least FIFTEEN years and more like twenty years?

You are surprised by the ‘hate’ - what you are misinterpreting is the direction of this anger which is mainly at the absolute incompetence of anyone tasked to deal with this. That promise after promise is broken.

Hard working, exhausted tax payers do not want to continue paying billions and billions for this, why is this so hard for you to understand? They want the money to be used for social care, pot holes, improvements in services.

The vast majority of this country did not consent for so much of our money to be wasted like this.

That is why people are incandescent. Nothing to do with big business. Nothing to do with multinationals or anyone’s agenda.

It is about consent. Consent was not given to allow so many undocumented males into our villages and towns. Consent was not given to pay billions to do so. Consent for £600 taxis and endless need. All of it. Do you not see this feel like it is forced on much of the country?

People up and down this country have really had enough.

Yes to all the points you’ve pointed out.
Yes, they need to be addressed ASAP

BUT - I just wish you were up in arms the same way about the lack of GPs in this country. Our health system is gone yet you’re pissed off about something that does not impact you on regular basis. I am still waiting on a referral 1 year after being given one. Great isn’t it?! I was given one last week yet I got a letter the other day that it’s been cancelled with no reason and no further dates or information. Fab isn’t it?!

Wish people would demonstrate about our deteriorating NHS, but they would rather complain about immigrants who don’t necessarily affect their daily lives. And before you say the immigrants are using our NHS bla bla, go and find the active thread at the moment about a GP who can’t get a job because the nhs doesn’t want GPs anymore and would rather employ nurses and paramedics.They are deliberating breaking the system down systematically. Why aren’t you up in arms about this?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5417054-im-a-gp

Is this the substandard Britain you want?
This is what’s infuriating.

Aaah, I thought I'd referenced everything! I looked again to find the chart I saw and found as well as the chart that supports my argument, lots of different stats saying different things about trade wages so maybe it's something where I could cherry pick the data to fit my viewpoint? I don't want to do that... My ex was qualified to fit boilers, and his income seemed to be going up year on year even though it was a very stressful and seasonal job (he was self employed). But that might be completely different for roofers and people in other areas of the country. And again different for people employed in the building industry which is so up and down.

I guess, my problem with jobs like gas fitters etc is I can completely see how they need to be paid well and their jobs protected. But from the other side of it, it's absolutely miserable if your boiler breaks in the middle of winter or the plumbing goes and you get told every qualified person is booked up till January. I know from experience it will be because they are working flat out. But wanting hot water isn't exactly a luxury thing that only posh out of touch people care about. It's not a small thing like being able to buy different foods in the market. So I am very conflicted! It should be possible to protect wages and ensure that there are enough people to do the job.

What do you think about articles like this? Are they propaganda (a bit like landlord sob stories, I imagine the Home Builders Federation etc have a bias) or is there something in it? If there is, what's the best way of dealing with it? More apprentice schemes, higher pay and incentives or...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-capital-economics-alan-jones-b2617162.html

Aaah, I thought I'd referenced everything! I looked again to find the chart I saw and found as well as the chart that supports my argument, lots of different stats saying different things about trade wages so maybe it's something where I could cherry pick the data to fit my viewpoint? I don't want to do that... My ex was qualified to fit boilers, and his income seemed to be going up year on year even though it was a very stressful and seasonal job (he was self employed). But that might be completely different for roofers and people in other areas of the country. And again different for people employed in the building industry which is so up and down.

I guess, my problem with jobs like gas fitters etc is I can completely see how they need to be paid well and their jobs protected. But from the other side of it, it's absolutely miserable if your boiler breaks in the middle of winter or the plumbing goes and you get told every qualified person is booked up till January. I know from experience it will be because they are working flat out. But wanting hot water isn't exactly a luxury thing that only posh out of touch people care about. It's not a small thing like being able to buy different foods in the market. So I am very conflicted! It should be possible to protect wages and ensure that there are enough people to do the job.

What do you think about articles like this? Are they propaganda (a bit like landlord sob stories, I imagine the Home Builders Federation etc have a bias) or is there something in it? If there is, what's the best way of dealing with it? More apprentice schemes, higher pay and incentives or...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-capital-economics-alan-jones-b2617162.html

@Nestingbirds the point of this thread is to try to explore why certain stories, issues and problems are portrayed as crises, when the reality it much more nuanced.
Why do certain politicians want you to believe there is a crisis? So that you will vote for them to fix it.
Take the 4* hotels issue. My workplace is opposite the hotel in Canary Wharf. That hotel is a total dive. It looks like something out of a bad sitcom about 80s hotels. Like a Crossroads type thing. It’s already not a luxury place to start with and once you change it to have 4 beds per room, sharing a bathroom and no laundry facilities - how much luxury do you think is left?
However, the politicians and the papers can say ‘It’s a luxury 4* hotel overlooking the Thames in the swanky Canary Wharf area’ and people can easily conclude that it’s lovely for the people staying there and that they are experiencing some kind of extended mini-break environment so that you get riled up about it. And then you think ‘why are they getting that when I’m working my fingers to the bone and haven’t had a holiday in 5 years?’ So when that politician comes along and says ‘I can fix that problem and make it go away and you won’t need to be angry anymore’ it’s seductive. But the problem you think it is and the problem you think they have solved is not the full picture. Migrants being housed in hotels is a relatively new approach. You have to ask why that is. What happened previously? What’s the alternative?
I don’t subscribe to the idea that all immigration is bad and everyone is here for a free ride and a life of crime. And there isn’t any evidence to support the narrative that all the people who arrive here are out to murder us in our beds. They just want to live their lives, as we all do.
There is an endless list of things which the state pays for that individual tax payers don’t personally agree with. I don’t like sport, but my taxes go to pay for policing football matches. In my mind that’s wasted taxpayers money. But what’s the alternative if the state doesn’t get involved? Public order offences, violence etc. I’ve got no use for the buildings created for the Olympic that are maintained by the taxpayer now. I could say ‘stop wasting money on them and fix potholes instead’. There’s so much you could get angry about but immigrants is a really easy sell for those politicians wanting to grab power for their own ends.

Yes, we have plenty if home grown criminals - we don’t need to import more.

The recent and very sharp rise in rapes is rather interesting though given the recent and very sharp rise in men coming in from countries where apparently rape is illegal (if you listen to their defence in court).

We are currently waiting for the government to release figures - they have been suspiciously reticent on this.

Do point out where I have said that no immigrant contributes to the system. I haven’t assumed any such thing.

The current situation IS having a negative impact directly on many people and indirectly to society. The women and girls already raped harassed and in some cases murdered by men in immigrant hotels were victims of entirely preventable crimes. If those men weren’t here or were held in secure accommodation - those horrific life changing crimes wouldn’t have happened. How many rapes and murders do you find acceptable collateral damage?

We can’t spare £2 billion per year to spend on hotels for immigrants plus however much we are spending on taxis, private healthcare and prosecuting some of them for rape it murder snd fighting the ‘human rights’ lawyers to try and get them removed from our country.

Rachel Reeves has black holes in the budget all over the place and is cutting services and upping taxes wherever she can. We can’t afford this.

Tell you what, you campaign about that topic and others will campaign about the other issue and if we win we might end up better all round.

I don’t see why do many people object to campaigns on one topic that clearly affects many on the grounds that there are so many other topics to get sorted.

And just for clarity, the NHS spending millions and millions on foreign language interpreters, on site healthcare for immigrant hotels, taxis for those who don’t get on site care, free dentistry, not to mention healthcare tourists with unpaid bills while UK citizens pay into the system get none of those things is not good.

For example, the NHS loses £388 million per year from the unpaid bills of health tourists.

It spends approx £174 million per year on foreign language interpreters.

We don’t know yet how much the taxis and healthcare to hotels is costing but it is rapidly growing.

Thats £500,000,000 per year spent on things that don’t benefit any UK taxpayer. While many U.K. citizens no longer have access to dentistry or effective healthcare.

Why aren’t you complaining about that?

100% this have followed him for a long time and he makes soooo much sense. Shame he’s not in the running for PM!

You are not connecting the dots, with respect.

The NHS isn’t failing due to a lack of investment it was never designed to serve the world. £340 million pa just on health tourists! You are struggling because the NHS can not possibly serve every health requirement of seventy million people - many of whom are aging. It’s a mathematical impossibility for us to continue as we are, you are being sold a lie. That we can have world class health care for ‘free’ -

This becomes even more unlikely if the numbers arriving continue to rise and rise. All of whom will require help, support and pensions as they age.

We really can not continue to allow a ridiculous number of people the right to live here and access all of our services indefinitely whilst bringing all of their extended families and so on.

We are heading towards a crisis, I think we are already there in some parts of the country. A politician isn’t telling me this in hope of having my support ( I would never vote for reform) I can see for myself at the hospital last week that we can not cope. It was utter chaos with nowhere to even sit. We are only in September. My GP can not see my asthmatic child for six weeks, he said it’s because he has too many patients on his books now.

No doubt those in ivory towers look at the 3 star hotels and think the economic migrants are welcome to them, but for those that are freezing in their homes and having to skip meals to clothe their children it looks like the lap of luxury. The two billion wasted is badly required for maternity services that are in terminal decline, extra hospitals and social care. We can not afford to welcome everyone. It has to stop.

What I am saying is it US directly impacting every one of us.

*is

So less than a tenner per British person then?
I agree with you it’s not ideal but even if all that money could be saved it still wouldn’t go a very long way to sorting out the NHS.

The 340 million on "health tourism"
Deliberate health tourism definitely happens. E.g:
Olukemi Olufunto "Kemi" Adegoke was born on 2 January 1980 in Wimbledon, London.[14] Her mother Feyi had travelled from Nigeria to the United Kingdom for medical treatment, and gave birth in St Teresa's Maternity Hospital. This was before the British Nationality Act 1981 abolished automatic birthright citizenship for those born in the UK; Feyi then returned to Nigeria shortly after Olukemi was born

However, there are more restrictions on it than there used to be. It would be harder, these days, to do what Kemi Badenoch's mother did in 1980. Childbirth aside, for non urgent treatment you need to pay up front. I think usually you need to have a significant sum to cover any eventualities that is then refunded afterwards.
Urgent treatment they can't refuse but they are supposed to ask for payment later. If you had to prove you were a UK resident before said urgent treatment that would be tricky. You can't whip your passport out if you are lying in the road unconscious. And people often turn up to hospital in a hurry and don't think to bring their ID, proof of residence etc with them. The NHS is supposed to bill non UK residents they have treated. Other countries do this -Germany, Netherlands etc. Either the person pays (and claims back on their insurance) or the insurance pays the hospital directly. It's not rocket science.
The problem is, the NHS isn't set up for this, so most nurses etc will look blank if you ask how to pay. It isn't always a case of foreign visitors deliberately scamming the NHS. A lot of the people receiving care will be tourists not illegal immigrants, not even immigrants. IE people having accidents when on holiday the same way Brits fall of balconies in Spain. I agree hospitals should do more to actually take the money owed. Maybe it's something Wes Streeting can do when he looks into making NHS admin more efficient.
But ultimately it's an admin failing. You can fix it by fixing the admin. Or you can fix it by banning all foreigners from our shores but in so doing we would lose a lot of tourist revenue. So the admin route seems better.

I have personal experience of this as at one point I had been living elsewhere for 5 years so was "non-resident" even though I am a UK citizen. I went to hospital with possible concussion and they glued my head together but seemed uncertain what to do with my health insurance details. The Doctor didn't know about that stuff. I think I found someone at an admin desk in the end and left it there. NHS emergency departments aren't set up to collect payment or insurance claims. That could be changed and should be changed. But I still dont think people like me, and tourists, and non-residents should be refused entry to the UK or treatment.

£340 million per year would make an enormous difference over five years to maternity services! It’s the principle that people actually fly in to get their operations done, because it costs £15,000 in their home country. We are footing the bill. It is theft.

So many people in the country can’t get NHS dental or timely/life saving healthcare but it’s fine to waste an extra £500 million because it’s only (actually) £13 for every single taxpayer in the UK?

I don’t understand this argument regularly wheeled out which is summarised as “it’s shit anyway so it’s fine to make it a bit more shit”.

This is often used to justify male rapists on women’s hospital wards and many other ridiculous points.

Except that St Theresa’s maternity hospital was taken out of the NHS in 1967 and was run privately by nuns until its closure.

If you’re going to try and cast shade on Kemi Badenoch, get your facts straight.

from the Lost Hosputals of London

In 1967 the South West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board decided to withdraw its grant of £77,000 a year on the grounds that a new maternity unit of 35 beds was being made available at Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton (and that it was now government policy to locate such beds in a district general hospital for safety reasons).
Despite a petition of 35,000 signatures and a 'march of prams' to the House of Commons in protest of the withdrawal of the subsidy, the Board carried out its plan and, from January 1968, NHS patients were referred to Queen Mary's Hospital. The Hospital, now deeply in debt due to its latest extension, refused the offer of an alternative contract from the Board to provide care for geriatric and chronically sick patients on the basis that converting the buildings for such a purpose would be prohibitively expensive.