to think we're all being manipulated

[newbluesofa]

I'm going to get flamed by reform voters here, and I think it'll come off as thinking I'm smarter than everyone but I genuinely don't, which is why I'm so confused by this.

To me, it is incredibly obvious that we are being completely manipulated by politicians and the media. They want us to blame immigrants and people who claim benefits for their failing to run the country properly. And it's worked.

I don't think we should have unregulated immigration, there are issues that need to be addressed. But there's a difference between sensibly discussing immigration from an economic point, and the nasty hate and vitriol that's everywhere now. It is what they WANT. As long as we're fighting amongst ourselves, no one is looking up at the people with the real power and money.

One example, newspapers describing immigrants as 'fighting age men'. 'Fighting' is not an age. Young men could also be fit, healthy, and able to work and contribute. They say 'fighting age' to scaremonger and promote anti immigrant rhetoric, and it works as people parrot the line.

It's always been the way that the ruling class look for ways to keep the masses infighting. Honestly I lose respect at anyone that falls for it. I don't get how it isn't so obvious to others, how can you not see you're being played?

What’s an example of manipulation from the other side to your op in your view?

Define "immigrant", and define "ethnically British". Because if none of your ancestors was either Saxon or Norman you may be right to state categorically that you don't have at least one immigrant in your ancestry, but I'd say the chances of that being the case are so close to nil as to make no nevermind. And if you're right and none of them were either of that lot, what odds on a Dane or two somewhere in there? Possibly a Roman – or somebody from one of the many other nations whom they scooped up into their legions and stationed in Britain?

One of the great points about the British has always been their mongrel nature.

I gave one in my OP, did you not read it?

I stated in my OP that there are issues around immigration that need addressing (I didn't specify which) but that we are being manipulated into hateful rhetoric and infighting which makes actual discussion difficult.

Oh the irony. You start a thread about how stupid people are to fall for the propaganda and I’m the nasty one.

Yes you said ‘fighting age males’. Is there something else that you think the left use to manipulate around immigration?

A proper conversation would surely be to provide facts and figures to give the correct information to counteract the propaganda.
Surely starting a thread aren’t people stupid to believe the media just gets people’s back up?

I'm not sure why you need another example, my thread wasn't really designed to explain it to people who don't see the manipulation and I'm not prepared to do that.

Nor sure why you asked specifically about the left though, it's not about left vs right and i never say it is. The people in power don't care left or right. They just want to keep everyone fighting and promote hatefulness and arguing in place of actual discussion.

Actually it seems like most people agree that the media and politicians are manipulating people. Even people who agree immigration is a pressing issue can see the rhetoric is vitriolic which does no one any good. People have replied with things like 'yes obviously, you're not saying anything new here' which is my point exactly. It should be obvious so why do people fall for it?

So I would say that if you read my OP and got defensive or it got your back up, I'd question why that is.

I even state in a reply upthread that I'm being manipulated, we all are to an extent. It shouldn't make you feel defensive - if you can see it, then I'm not talking about you am I?

I know you are not keen but it does seem skewed.

They just want to keep everyone fighting and promote hatefulness and arguing in place of actual discussion.

If that were true I'd say you were helping them by implying that everyone anti immigration is gullible.

The OP didn't accuse anyone of being stupid. She pointed out that we're all being manipulated.

I might be wrong, but I don't think she was intending to counteract the propaganda merely start a discussion about it existing and how damaging it is to our society.

Most people, including OP, agree that unlimited immigration isn't going to work for this country (or any country). We are agreeing so why are we arguing rather than uniting and finding sensible solutions?

Well I do see it more often in anti-immigrant sentiment. But someone said upthread they saw someone post a meme representing reform voters as an overweight, sunburned, balding man holding a st george flag and a beer, or something to that effect. Insulting stereotypes from the left is the same, contributes nothing and encourages infighting.

Thanks, this is exactly it. From the way some people have responded, you'd think I said 'immigration isn't a problem at all and anyone who thinks it is is just a stupid racist thicko'

I was actually quite careful to say that there are issues with immigration and not to really say where I stand on it. Because the issue of immigration itself wasn't the point of the thread

I think my experience of covid and lockdowns eroded any blind trust I had in media and politicians and that sent me off to start looking to see how the world really works and asking questions. It suppose it was easier to spot the patterns when literally nothing else was happening.

Then all this pointing at people on benefits ramped up and I wondered how we got to this point of blaming the weakest. I ended up looking into the history of work and social class from the beginning of human time and made my way through it to now (gradually and going off on many tangents) and that’s what made everything make sense.

You don’t know what you don’t know, right up until you do know. It’s not like we’re taught this stuff - that’s the point.

There are thousands of women whose lives are changed by rapes, sexual and physical assaults by men who aren’t ‘illegal’ immigrants. In the majority of cases, they aren’t even strangers. The line of argument that says the only assault we should be shouting about is the threat posed by immigrants in asylum seeker hotels does not stack up.
plus you are also making the assumption that no immigrant contributes to the system. Evidence shows that those who are permitted to work put in more in tax and NI than they take out.
It’s not a luxury to believe the data over the rhetoric.

This is so interesting, I really appreciate you sharing. You're right, we don't know what we don't know. I think this is a good place to tie up the thread 😊

I totally agree with you and have done for years. The government's have been manipulating it's hard to trust any of them. Well said glad someone else can see, but we are not alone in thinking this.

You are also being manipulated to be believe the social experiment being conducted in the west is actually going to work. Actually no one knows what the outcome of mass migration will be. It’s never happened on this magnitude.

If you consider the country back in 1970 and you look at it now, it’s barely recognisable. Back then most people went to church. We knew all of our neighbours well enough to call them friends. We cooked everything from scratch with everything grown here. Shared values were a given and life had a simplicity about it that is hard to recreate, I am personally horrified by the loss of so much. This subject is far bigger and broader - with such depth.

The politicians appear to be manipulating at both ends of the spectrum. I doubt they will be able to keep a lid on the truth for much longer. The dam is already about to burst - but not for the reasons you state.

I agree. The distrust of msm, of which ever political bent and I absolutely include the guardian in this, has lead to an erosion in public confidence on an unprecedented scale. People are seeking " the truth" for themselves, aided by independent media sources. I didn't believe asylum seekers were being housed in 4* accommodation until I watched some undercover reporters showing me I was very wrong. So, yes Op you ARE right in that we have been manipulated, but I do believe the majority have now woken up; where that will take us is anyone's guess.

I think it’s broader than this and rn the overarching narrative around immigration is being tested. Not just here but in the west generally.

There’s not really a right or wrong to it just one system is pushing one thing and many people are pushing back.

Nestingbirds
If you consider the country back in 1970 and you look at it now, it’s barely recognisable. Back then most people went to church. We knew all of our neighbours well enough to call them friends. We cooked everything from scratch with everything grown here. Shared values were a given and life had a simplicity about it that is hard to recreate, I am personally horrified by the loss of so much. This subject is far bigger and broader - with such depth.

Don't you mean the 1870s? I was alive in the 1970s and none of your statements about what society was like then resemble anything I saw: your version is barely recognisable. (Church attendance once a month or more was by then down to a bit over one in five of the population, for instance. Twenty-two per cent is not "most".)

In particular, "shared values were a given" is a crock; not if you were gay or female they weren't. Or black. Or disabled. Or had any MH issues. Or got raped, or abused within your marriage. Or even belonged to different political parties; remember Wilson and Heath? And indeed Callaghan and Thatcher? Quite a wide variety of unshared values there, I feel.

(I think you must be posting tongue in cheek.)

@Nestingbirds sorry, but your view of the 70s is based on feelings, not facts. A quick check of the Hansard from the 70s will show you what we were importing (bacon from Denmark, fruit from Spain, even potatoes from Cyprus) And 11% of the population were regular Sunday churchgoers.
That’s how you get manipulated to believe that the past was better than the present. And how Modern Britain is falling apart because of ‘immigrants’.

I’m not being arrogant. I’m trying to point out to you that the causes of hardship, poverty, disadvantage are not caused by small boats. That’s what we are being told. It’s what the Reform lot want people to believe because the real causes of hardship are multi faceted and cannot be fixed with a sound bite. How our society functions is subject to global macro economic conditions. But Farage wants to be in power so he will say anything and promise anything to get there. And it’s easy to say to people in hardship ‘those illegals are getting more than you. That’s why your life is so tough’ and it doesn’t have to be true. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not trying to be confrontational

I am certainly not going to argue with people that have to look up on the bloody internet what life was like in the 1970s! It was my lived experience - end of.

The erosion of our values, of our goodwill, the absolute travesty of having a country where we value democracy and yet the little girls in Rotherham were raped and molesfed over and over again for years, and everyone looked the other way. The anger and resentment has been building and boiling away in the background for years and years. It has nothing at all to do with the media!!

No, it’s not okay. It really is not okay. None of this is okay.

None of this is acceptable to most of the country. The packs of men in hoods terrorising even elderly ladies in the streets, and sexually assautling young girls in plain siight. The people smugglers making a fortune on the misery and exploitation of their prey. The millions and millions paid to France for them to stand by and wave on the boats.
The men that arrive here that are used to ‘’marrying’ oka raping ten year olds because that is normal in their country.

The millions that are sitting around on benefits and in social housing because they can not speak a word of English. The relentless promises that someone somewhere will get a grip on the situation but no one ever does anything.

The vast number of arrivals is taking our country to the brink of collapse with endless waiting lists everywhere. Our housing crisis and moreover the infrastructure of the entire country feels very fragile. At breaking point almost everywhere.

You can say it’s all made up - even as the bbc uncovers the disgusting waste of £600 taxis and the billions we are paying for hotels and all the extras. I for one know it’s true because it’s on our doorstep. We have no houses at all to rent here now.

You can say it’s ‘manipulation’ but back in the real world op it is absolutely real. So you keep living under a rock and say everyone is ‘lying’ to you, which just sounds unhinged quite frankly unless you literally live in the Hebrides, but honestly it’s coming across as denial and total distortion, and outright lying on your part.

Scale of the problem of immigration? When does immigration affect your day to day life?

Hardly!!

The education sector and health sector are screaming and their decline is affecting each and everyone one of us every single day. The poor access to doctors, hospital referrals, the lack of SEND support at schools (and the list goes on) is affecting each family on a personal level and yet you think immigration is a massive problem on a scale? We are literally being denied decent healthcare and education and you’re complaining about a non priority problem. Yes it needs addressing but my goodness there are way more pressing issues.