It’s not suddenly all the kids, it’s the new teacher.

[jollyoldjo]

DD has just gone into year 4 and has a new teacher.

They had the same teacher for the last 2 years and she was very nice and also had lovely teachers before her.

We are still in the first month of a new year with the new teacher who’s new to the school and quite young so at a guess newly qualified and suddenly all of the children are misbehaving but were fine with other teachers, she keeps them back 15 minutes every day for poor behaviour, this is decided on the day without notice but it’s been every day and that’s the whole class.

A more experienced teacher is taking the class for a week next week to sort out the behaviour.

I regularly help out on school trips and they’re not bad kids and they haven’t all suddenly developed behavioural issues they just have no respect for this particular teacher.
AIBU to think she has no control over the class and it seems because she isn’t coping she’s retaliating against the children by being an absolute jobs worth?

We’ve had multiple letters out explaining they’ve all missed breaks and not done PE etc because of poor behaviour and by keeping them an extra 15 minutes she is making herself very unpopular by leaving parents standing outside in the empty playground while she punishes the children and parents.
I have a child in the same school in year 6 who has walked home and got changed while I’m still waiting in the playground for dd to come out at supposedly the same finish time, we’ve never had this before.
Other children and their siblings have places to be after school.

AIBU to think if as early as September, 30 kids and their parents are hoping they don’t have this teacher again next year then it’s not the kids it’s the teacher?

Not having breaks and PE is going to make them behave worse. It's been studied. What a terrible way to attempt to rein them in.

Just like learner drivers, newly qualified teachers have to learn, and unfortunately they have to do it on the job. I refrained a few years ago, and my behaviour management was not good for the first term or so. I had to learn. It really is impossible to overstate how overwhelming the first few weeks of being a teacher are (which, actually, is how long this woman has been teaching for - few weeks). Parental complaints- unless for an urgent issue eg safety - at this point only add to anxiety and workload. I’m not saying don’t address it, just give her a chance and the school a chance to support her. Eg until half term. I’m great at behaviour management now, if I do say so myself. I’m a good teacher. But I could easily have crumbled under the pressure of that first year and left - so many do. As a parent, you could try supporting the person who is educating your child and looking after them for many hours a week, so they can all have a positive experience. It’s not a ‘her’ and ‘them’ polarised situation.

Not acceptable.
Our daughter is picked up my a childminder 3 nights a week who collects several other children from other classes (reception to year 5) - expecting her to wait with the other children plus a baby is ridiculous - and not what I or other children are paying for.
Punishing all for the misdemeanours of a few is never going to be a winning tactic. Ask to speak to the head.

I’m a teacher - I can vouch that hormones start surging at year 4, and as a year 4 teacher and parent of a year 4 child - behaviour, friendship, attitudes all start to change around now. So it’s entirely possible that behaviour is at play - or part of it, but it sounds like the new teacher needs support to manage what is probably low level behaviour.
I’ve never known an experienced teacher to step in like this, or after school detentions in primary, so this is a very unusual one that I’d definitely not be happy with as a parent. Although it sounds like the school are beginning to take charge over it.

fingers crossed it gets sorted!

I have worked in primary schools and agree with this. I also don’t think it’s acceptable to hold children back for 15 minutes after school regularly.

As a parent, you could try supporting the person who is educating your child and looking after them for many hours a week, so they can all have a positive experience. It’s not a ‘her’ and ‘them’ polarised situation.

The only person making it a her and them polarised situation is the teacher. And the kids having a positive experience counts for nothing? They're at an impressionable age too. The well behaved ones are losing out twice, once because she isn't succeeding in controlling the class, and again because they're being included in draconian ineffective class punishments.

In order for the teacher to have been ‘sacked’ there would need to be gross misconduct which not managing behaviour is not an example of. This sounds like playground gossip. Either she was a supply teacher who they can ‘get rid of’ or she quite rightly thought ‘fuck this shit I’m off!’ If it was a supply teacher then this is highly unusual in a primary
if they are the class teacher from the start of the year. This might suggest nobody else in the school wants to teach that particular class or that they struggled to get anyone to apply!
I’m baffled that two teachers struggled with this class but yet you still blame the teachers and not the kids! 🤷‍♀️😂 If a class is unmanageable by two members of staff then it’s highly likely it is the class. It’s actually quite damaging these days that parents seem to have so little respect for teachers. Some of you are clearly unaware of the recruitment crisis in secondaries. It won’t take long for this to filter down into primaries just as poor behaviour is starting to. There will be nobody left willing to teach.

Exactly this. If the parents are moaning about the teacher to/in front of the kids then the kids behaviour will only get worse.
The kids who behave for teachers are usually the ones who know their parents will back up the teacher (whilst also listening to their side).

You can’t just sack a teacher, HR rules apply.

In order for the teacher to have been ‘sacked’ there would need to be gross misconduct which not managing behaviour is not an example of.

You don't have to be guilty of gross misconduct to be let go in a probationary period. Do teachers not have probationary periods in a new job like the rest of us?

Make an appointment to see the head teacher and explain what's been happening. She may have better ways to manage the class without the need for making them all stay over.

Whole class punishment is such a lazy and cowardly approach, trying to use peer pressure to make children behave (never works, the well behaved kids are just punished for something they didn’t do).
OP, I would definitely complain about the collective punishment, even if it is within school hours. What’s the incentive for the kids to behave if they know they will be punished anyway because of others?

Also, kids change a lot around the age of 8.

On a separate note, my son has ADHD, but generally very well behaved at school. However with each new teacher he will 100% act up to test the boundaries...if those boundaries aren't clear he will keep pushing til he finds the clear line, however if it is clear they are the same rules and consequences as before, he will fall in line quickly.
He had a bad week in year2 and his teacher was baffled...after chatting it turned out the trainee teacher was taking the class! I was like oh yeah, he will test a new teacher, a one to one activity with her the next morning on top of enforcing the same rules and he was back to good as gold within a day.

So it in entirely possible that numerous kids are behaving a lot worse for a new to the school and less experienced teacher. Especially if there are a number of ND kids in the class. Hopefully after a supported week they will all be on track.

Teachers now do 2 years as "newly qualified teacher" in which they are (supposed to be) much more closely supported and supervised to put the theory they have learned into real life. This why a more experienced teacher is stepping into the class for a week, so see what skills aren't there to keep a class of 8 year olds in line.

There is a massive shortage of teachers, it makes no sense to fire them whilst they are still developing.

No, neither are teachers.

There are 32 children and 1 of her. And if the children are being badly behaved it will be hell for her. There is a reason teachers have nervous breakdowns.

Presumably they WERE getting breaktime, playtime at lunch, PE when they started being naughty.

I'm a parent but I also have every sympathy for the teacher, particularly when the parents are denigrating her and undermining her in group chats.

Given the drastic teacher shortage that could result in a stream of daily supply teachers or being taught by an untrained teaching assistant if they're unable to recruit.

I know which I'd prefer.

Teachers now do 2 years as "newly qualified teacher" in which they are (supposed to be) much more closely supported and supervised

Yes, I would be concerned this teacher wasn't being properly supported. Again, a parent politely getting involved and asking those questions about behaviour policy can get things moving quicker and get things fixed quicker. If the school were doing their job properly, the teacher would have had it pointed out at least two weeks ago that whole class punishments doesn't work, that PE is part of the curriculum, and that keeping children after school was against the behaviour policy. And if they had done that and she didn't change her methods, maybe this job is going to be too much for her. Maybe they didn't.

There should be stages before "here let someone else do it". And I strongly dislike telling the parents it's the kids' fault for being so awful when the teacher is obviously making big mistakes themselves. I'd be telling that one to my child straight. Who won't misbehave whatever she thinks of the teacher because she's a ball of anxiety and just wants to be left in peace to learn.

My own Daughter is now an experienced primary teacher but had a real crisis of confidence in her first week, when she realised that the techniques she’d learned in Uni didn’t necessarily survive contact with a boisterous year 5 class.

She spoke to one of her own primary teachers who advised her to get a tight grip in the first few weeks and set clear expectations, then to ease back at times when the class is settled. She was also supported by her SLT, hung on in there and is now a mentor to new teachers herself.

Here, it sounds like SLT are aware of the situation and planning to step in next week, possibly seeing if the Teacher manages to sort it themselves first. This is OK, but I think they should have put an immediate stop to any sanctions outside their disciplinary policy.

As a parent, it would be a hard no from me to my child staying after school unless they were part of the problem. I would though clamp down hard on my child about any complaints at this stage in the year and be very clear that I expected good behaviour from them. The child will have a better year if they develop a constructive relationship than if they don’t and as a parent I would point out that they don’t have to like everyone, but they do need to get on and behave.

I think the OP is best to support the teacher for now, because in any case a class which is continuously disruptive won’t be learning much, either academically or socially.

That's not how respect works.

It as a big deal when you have other places to be and other children to collect I'd be going in and getting my child personally

I would like to warn also that things like whole class punishments doesn't just affect the way the kids view an individual teacher but it can have a pretty significant knock-on effect in terms of trusting the school at all. We've had ongoing issues with my daughter's school over things like whole class punishments, PE being used as a reward /punishment, a whole thing about the way 'rewards' were going to the same children over and over again, even the way class work was being given to all the children at the level of the 'lowest level' child instead of at their own level and my daughter really struggled to deal with how she was perceiving the unfairness. There is an element of teaching her that unfortunately sometimes life isn't fair, which you can do with one or two of things now and then, but it got to the point the entire school culture was really distressing her. She has a strong, strong sense of fairness and when I asked her one day if not getting a 'reward' made her feel like she wanted to try harder is school, she replied 'but I do try hard in school'. The upshot is that she was continually being overlooked along with other mainstream-typical children AND SEN children, and in conjunction with everything else - she just doesn't trust the school. She doesn't trust anything any of the teachers say. She doesn't believe them on anything. This is not conducive to educational success or even just good mental wellbeing. We support the teachers and school where we can - in their favour they're very receptive to contact and the headteacher is pretty good and never fobs us off. When they do something well or introduce a new policy I agree with I drop them a line in support also.

But just be aware that as it's a slippery slope when the trust is damaged. How can you encourage children to learn and enjoy school when they don't trust the environment or the people.

Ultimately the school is responsible for all those children but your child only has YOU to advocate for them. You're the only one who will do it. So if you need to, do it. It doesn't need to be confrontational.

As a teacher I know what it’s like when you have a challenging class but whole class punishments never work.

In your shoes, OP, I would have a private word with the teacher and ask if your DC are part of the problem and what they would like you to work on with them. I’d also say whole class punishments are unfair and not good practice so could the teacher please stop.

I’d do this away from your DC so you don’t undermine the teacher.

Then I would wait.

If things don’t improve, then I would email the deputy head and not complain but express a concern about this practice.

There is a massive shortage of teachers and going in all guns blazing may make this one decide to up sticks and leave. Hopefully, this teacher will get the right support to help them manage behaviour better and then it’s a win win situation.

I agree it must feel very frustrating for you, OP.

I was thinking this too. Year 3 is their first year into juniors, and they are the youngest and trying to absorb the changes. Year 4 they feel like have been there for ages, start to test boundaries but don't have the maturity yet to fully understand longer term consequences of their actions. My daughter did well reception to Year 3, Year 4 wasn't great despite a very experienced teacher, and now in year 5 is doing well again. In my daughters school new teachers are nearly always placed in year 3 as 4 and 6 are acknowledged to be hardest behaviour wise, and year 5 is so crucial for 11+ preparation (in our area).

This poor teacher... It sounds like she's getting no support from the parents whatsoever, who are happy to excuse their children's behaviour because somehow its her fault! You're saying she's quite young too. How awful for her to be put in this situation, and have no one having her back... I hope she's got a lovely family who can support her. Parents should teach their children respect, not let them decide who to respect or not . Poor parenting usually shows up in the classroom...