It’s not suddenly all the kids, it’s the new teacher.

[jollyoldjo]

DD has just gone into year 4 and has a new teacher.

They had the same teacher for the last 2 years and she was very nice and also had lovely teachers before her.

We are still in the first month of a new year with the new teacher who’s new to the school and quite young so at a guess newly qualified and suddenly all of the children are misbehaving but were fine with other teachers, she keeps them back 15 minutes every day for poor behaviour, this is decided on the day without notice but it’s been every day and that’s the whole class.

A more experienced teacher is taking the class for a week next week to sort out the behaviour.

I regularly help out on school trips and they’re not bad kids and they haven’t all suddenly developed behavioural issues they just have no respect for this particular teacher.
AIBU to think she has no control over the class and it seems because she isn’t coping she’s retaliating against the children by being an absolute jobs worth?

We’ve had multiple letters out explaining they’ve all missed breaks and not done PE etc because of poor behaviour and by keeping them an extra 15 minutes she is making herself very unpopular by leaving parents standing outside in the empty playground while she punishes the children and parents.
I have a child in the same school in year 6 who has walked home and got changed while I’m still waiting in the playground for dd to come out at supposedly the same finish time, we’ve never had this before.
Other children and their siblings have places to be after school.

AIBU to think if as early as September, 30 kids and their parents are hoping they don’t have this teacher again next year then it’s not the kids it’s the teacher?

Well I am sure she is not fabricating their bad behaviour. So whilst they might have been better behaved for a previous teacher, they certainly aren't behaving for this one. As someone said, everyone is a new teacher once.

Speaking from experience, I will say that things will get better as she goes through her induction training and gains experience.

That said, she's losing relationships with her most important allies - the parents and the children - which will not help her regain control. Whole class punishments should not be happening, neither should after school ones at primary age.

I'd politely email to say that after school detentions won't be possible for you to support. I'd also ask what your child is doing to disrupt class, so you can chat to them about it and explain the seriousness. Only email the head if you get a defensive or aggressive response. If she can't give examples of how your child is disrupting class, they should not be part of those detentions and you can escalate that. Whole class punishments are not encouraged (as they damage relationships, which are key to maintaining control).

Wow, why would anyone be a teacher these days. The problem is that the kids don't respect her? Imagine if we adults went around treating shop assistants/doctors/nurses/people in the street we had never met before like crap because they hadn't yet earned our respect? Should we not be teaching our children to respect all adults, or indeed all other human beings? I am a teacher with 20 years' experience. I know that if I walked into a new class or a new school, kids would misbehave for me until I knew their names, had used some strategies and tactics, was backed up where necessary by the senior management team, and had generally had time to earn their respect. Imagine how hard that is for new, young teachers. And all the while they are trying to do this, your kids are treating them like shit and the parents are gossiping about how useless they are on What's App groups and forums like Mumsnet.

I spoke to my child’s teacher because of the whole class being kept in at breaks and genuinely wondered what was going on because my child is one of those studious, quiet children who would rather melt into the floor then be disruptive.
Turns out there was about 8-10 routinely disruptive children in the class, the teacher was also newly qualified.
He said it was easier to keep in the whole class than just the ones that were being disruptive because it was more than a couple.
I asked that instead of doing it that way, that he try and do it the way the school I worked in did.
Children’s names were written on the white board when they had done something against the schools behaviour policy. Then there was an accurate list of who needed to stay in, even if it was 15 of them.
The teacher said he would try and do it that way because I explained how upset and disheartening it must be for children to always make the right choices and still be kept in.
I would ask that your child’s primary school do the same, I would also complain about after school detentions in primary.
Once children see their names specifically going on the board to stay in, it usually acts as a bit of a deterrent, because who wants to stay in when everyone else is able to head out.
I would be really fed up with the waiting around at the end of the day, I’ve never heard of a primary school doing it.

Do shop assistants/doctors/nurses/people in the street stop you from going to the gym or leaving their shop etc because of someone elses bad behaviour?

So many people are missing the point here. It's the unfairness of being punished for someone elses wrongdoing. The fact is that this tactic doesn't work because all the kids are in these punishments together, whether they're part of it or not, so good ones won't see the point in behaving and neither will challenging ones - they're all having to do the same thing.

An effective way is to punish those causing the trouble. They will miss out while seeing their friends still enjoying playing at break/lunch. Those individual parents at home can then reinforce that their behaviour is not acceptable.

Punishment should not be taking away physical exercise which is part of the curriculum.

Not one person has said they would not support the teacher handing out consequences if their child actually did something wrong so I don't know why some teachers on the thread are trying to spin that narrative.

Actually communicate with the parents of those causing trouble instead of blanket messages to all parents, and give consequences to the ones doing it. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

That's a really good suggestion, I was reading this thinking well how is she going to get the kids being little shits tykes to behave then?

Surely the kids in class know who the REAL trouble makers are anyway, are the parents the kind to kick off at the suggestion their little angels are actually less than angelic?

If they’re repeatedly not informing you in advance about the after school detentions then I’d be very tempted to wait 5-10 minutes then go. Just leave the playground and wait somewhere close. Let the school ring you to let you know your daughter’s ready for pickup.

Yes it’s unfair on the office staff and the teacher, but it’s unfair that your daughter is being kept behind and your schedule is being disrupted when neither she nor you did anything wrong.

Everyone has to learn a new job and start somewhere.

The trouble with whole class punishments is that it makes everyone feel like their child must be one of the ones who’s being punished unfairly, meaning even the parents of the ones playing up will be against the teacher/school instead of supporting them by disciplining their child. It also makes lots of the children think they might as well piss about too because they’re going to get punished anyway.

You’re not being unreasonable to be fed up with this, and to ask questions about exactly what your child has done and why they’re therefore being punished.

I would say though that the school is clearly aware there’s an issue. The reason that another teacher will be taking them next week won’t be to sort out their behaviour, but to sort out her behaviour management. That won’t be what’s said to the children, but that’ll be the reason. They’ll be demonstrating positive behaviour management strategies that she can then use to hopefully do better going forward. I’ve done this plenty of times when I’ve been supporting new teachers - take their class and show them what works (not for a whole week though because I’m in secondary, but enough to make sure the teacher can just pick up the strategies that work the best).

She has to learn, because this isn’t right and it isn’t working, and hopefully there’ll be enough support from the school to get her there.

Yep and children can identify them from a mile off. So it absolutely can be the children especially if they have had the same teacher two years running anyway.

Probably would have a quiet word about the whole class punishments but I’d be putting up a united front with the school on behaviour even if you don’t quite agree with them. Nothing will undermine that teacher’s behaviour management faster than parents commenting or complaining in front of their children.

A few thoughts on this that may have been missed.

As a new teacher, possibly ECT, she won't be being a "jobsworth" she will be following the school rules.
Why?
Because that is what new teachers do.
She will also be finding out how little support the school (hers not all) puts in place for for ECTs.

What this makes me wonder is just how "good", "nice" and "lovely" the previous teacher was.
If the previous teacher was so good and the schools policy on leaving the classroom was to line up nicely and in silence, then after two years it should be second nature to the children. Even if the children don't like the teacher they should already know and understand this.

So I am left thinking maybe the previous teacher didn't actually deal with any of the issues within the class, and maybe the new teacher is having such a hard time because she isn't trying to be best mates with the kids and the parents.

The possible truth of this is that if the teacher is fighting against two years of poor behaviour, lack of support from the school and parents you will get your wish and she will leave and go to a better school.

Of course she could be poor, she will learn how to flex the system, stay at this school and just coast through each year, because she will learn that there is no point in trying harder.

Controlling a class is, by and large, a giant con trick. You can only do it with the compliance of those children. If they don't want to behave for you, they won't. Even highly experienced teachers have days, lessons, where the class just.... won't stfu. Often there's a wasp involved.

We've all experienced the:"well they behave for me" teacher too.

I'd had perfect control of my classes until I moved schools and the kids preferred their other teacher. Granted, I knew the tricks and how to do it faster, but it was a very humbling experience to realise that my behaviour management skills were based on reputation and kids knowing me.

Incidentally, I have a well behaved ds. He knows how hard teaching can be. He's still been part of collective dickery when a new maths teacher started at his school. He has not done it again. Largely, because I made him go and find the teacher and apologise for being a dick. Even though 'it wasn't just me/I was just watching. ' yes, but you didn't try and stop it, did you? Therefore you're part of the problem.

I think you’re missing the point as the OP is saying it’s the teacher at fault for the bad behaviour, rather than parents actually teaching their children to respect all adults. If you were rude to other adults then yes, there would be consequences actually.

That thought had crossed my mind too Fripp. There is a possibility that the new teacher is trying to hold the children to a standard than the old one did.

Do shop assistants/doctors/nurses/people in the street stop you from going to the gym or leaving their shop etc because of someone elses bad behaviour?

The extra security measures a lot of supermarkets have put in, such as scanning a receipt to get out of the till area, are essentially collective punishment for the increase in shoplifting. Especially given how long it can take for someone to come and sort issues in an understaffed shop. A lot of life does! Not that I agree with it here.

This is not acceptable. I would be requesting that my child be released immediately after it had happened once. I have places you be and my children are not missing after school activities I pay for on a whim. I honestly would remove them if this is school policy.

Is this in the UK? I've never heard of a whole class being held back before, and I'm surprised the senior leadership team have agreed. Email the office and ask for the behaviour policy, and complain to the headteacher. Whole class punishment is wrong.

It’s in all the parents’, and children’s, interests that this teacher gets a grip on the behaviour of the class so the best strategy would be to support the school to support her. The fact another member of staff has been called in to support suggests they know there’s an issue and are trying to support the new teacher. The alternative could be a lot worse eg you drive her out and the class get landed with a supply - or a series of them - so at this early stage of the year your best bet is probably to be patient and trust that she will improve with experience.

Well maybe parents needs to start having consequences at home, too, if their child is being poorly behaved at school and preventing their and others' learning.

100% this, and they pick up on it earlier then people seem to think.

Yeah and the school should be supporting her, not leaving her to flail around

Like fuck would I support a teacher who is keeping a primary age child without my consent. We have after school activities, for more than one child. They have no right to keep my child, nor do they have any right to issue collective punishment. It is totally wrong and I would be on to the head the first time it happened.

@Gymrabbitcouldn’t agree more!!

And every day? After school, as well as in school? Outrageous.

That’s extremely poor class management to punish an entire class for the actions of the few. If she’s a newly qualified teacher and not managing the class very well, she needs additional support and supervision.

It sounds like the Head is aware but if after another couple of weeks, it’s still unresolved and she’s still struggling to manage the behaviours of the few, you need to take it further and raise it with the governors.