It’s not suddenly all the kids, it’s the new teacher.

[jollyoldjo]

DD has just gone into year 4 and has a new teacher.

They had the same teacher for the last 2 years and she was very nice and also had lovely teachers before her.

We are still in the first month of a new year with the new teacher who’s new to the school and quite young so at a guess newly qualified and suddenly all of the children are misbehaving but were fine with other teachers, she keeps them back 15 minutes every day for poor behaviour, this is decided on the day without notice but it’s been every day and that’s the whole class.

A more experienced teacher is taking the class for a week next week to sort out the behaviour.

I regularly help out on school trips and they’re not bad kids and they haven’t all suddenly developed behavioural issues they just have no respect for this particular teacher.
AIBU to think she has no control over the class and it seems because she isn’t coping she’s retaliating against the children by being an absolute jobs worth?

We’ve had multiple letters out explaining they’ve all missed breaks and not done PE etc because of poor behaviour and by keeping them an extra 15 minutes she is making herself very unpopular by leaving parents standing outside in the empty playground while she punishes the children and parents.
I have a child in the same school in year 6 who has walked home and got changed while I’m still waiting in the playground for dd to come out at supposedly the same finish time, we’ve never had this before.
Other children and their siblings have places to be after school.

AIBU to think if as early as September, 30 kids and their parents are hoping they don’t have this teacher again next year then it’s not the kids it’s the teacher?

Whole class punishment is a lazy behaviour management technique. It’s unfair and the children that aren’t ’misbehaving’ will simply get fed up and join in with those that are because what’s the point in doing the right thing when they get the same consequence as those who don’t?
Also - PE is a National Curriculum subject. I hate when removal of PE is used as a tool to manage behaviour - no teacher in the land would cancel a Maths lesson due to poor behaviour!

I’ve been the newly qualified teacher and it can be really hard to figure out how to manage behaviour but this isn’t it. Also - putting an experienced teacher in the class to ‘sort them out’ won’t do anything. The teacher needs to be supported to find techniques that work without another member of staff because the class will just see her as a pushover who couldn’t manage their behaviour.

Do you mean the few children? The teacher has said it’s just a few but is punishing the whole class - in an ineffective method for primary, regardless.

Or do you just say a blanket statement like this on all threads about teachers and students?

I remember the pure white-hot anger I used to feel as a child about whole-class punishments, when I was in year 4 or 5: the whole year, or even the whole school would be made to spend break time "practising lining up" because of the actions of a few, and there was a term when this kept on happening, as if teachers were making a point. When we were once made to sit in the assembly hall instead of playtime, I lost my temper, stood up and loudly made my feelings known. There was a stunned silence, a teacher took me aside, and I tearfully ranted about the unfairness of it: to be fair, I remember that teacher (and it probably wasn't her decision) being very patient in calming me down, while refusing to agree with me, and gently telling me I was being rude; but that didn't make me any less angry at the time.

It was then that I started hating school, considered refusing to go, or simply walking out myself, and I could have done it: schools were not like fortresses then, and I thought "if I'm going to be punished for behaving, I might as well not behave". I never actually did walk out (because I was afraid of being in trouble), but I became stubborn and uncooperative for a week or two. I was appeased by a small victory not long after that: when I knew that "practising lining up" was going to happen instead of playtime, I asked my teacher if I could stay in the classroom and finish my work. She was reluctant, and probably hadn't worked out why I wanted to, but I begged and pleaded, and I got my way. Result, I beat the system!

But keeping children after school like this is especially bad, precisely because it affects the children's families as well.

I’d not show up at home time and just appear 15 minutes late. And I’d email the school to say that would be my approach.

Collective punishment is stupid and not teaches the decent kids not to bother.

You would think if the class is so naughty that she would want rid of them asap at the end of the day, not keep them behind even longer!

What if you’re picking up another child from a different school. Or have to get to an appointment.

I generally think schools should be stricter but keeping back with no notice would be a definite no from me. It’s logistically difficult for many parents.

I guess it’s the same with a lot of punishments though. They involve the teacher having more time/contact with the children.

Maybe thats why my school didn’t have detentions. They figured out it was much more effective to send the dreaded “letter home” to our parents bemoaning our bad behaviour to kick us into action. And it didn’t require any more work from them. Our teachers did not like to do more than they had to :D

In this case it sounds as if she’s engaging in a power struggle with a group of them and this is her way of getting back at the trouble makers at the end of the day. If they ruin her day, she will ruin their home time - even if it cuts into her prep/marking time.

Year 4 is notorious for difficult behaviour OP. Many children, who were previously well behaved, display more challenging behaviours at this age.
The children should listen to and show respect to all their teachers. I'd be having that conversation with my child if I were in your shoes.

Ive only recently left teaching and have seen so many classes act up for new teachers and then an experienced teacher walks in and the pupils are completely different. This is due to the experienced teacher having more authority, being able to deal with behaviours but also the pupils knowing not to push their luck.

Give her a break. Every teacher has been new at one point. Supporting her and parents speaking to their children would help. I don't know how your DD doesn't know why they've been kept behind - even if it wasn't due to her she's seen and hear what was going on in the class.

As a teacher, I would love if every parent was on board with consequences put in place for poor behaviour. However, I think you need to email the teacher and clarify how the consequences fit with the school’s behaviour policy (which should be on the website). If the response doesn’t sit right with you, then email whoever is responsible for behaviour in the school. It isn’t always the head teacher.

I’ve worked with teachers who run their class in this way before and all I can say is unhappy children do not learn well - so even if these consequences magically improve behaviour (they won’t), the class aren’t going to trust their teacher to be someone they can rely on to help them with their learning. It sounds like the reset button needs to be hit.

Edited to add - obviously speak to your child first and make sure they aren’t part of the poor behaviour. PE still shouldn’t be taken away though and after school detentions shouldn’t be used (unless part of the behaviour policy).

I regularly help out on school trips and they’re not bad kids and they haven’t all suddenly developed behavioural issues they just have no respect for this particular teacher.

They're "not bad kids" but it's the teacher's fault they're behaving badly? Because at the age of 8 or 9, they've decided that a trained & committed adult is not worthy of respect???

Yeah, right. I can see where the problem is, and it's not the teacher. Children should behave in a respectful manner to their peers and their teachers because they're in a classroom, and they are engaged in a social public space where they need to learn how to treat others properly.

You and the other parents need to be speaking to the kids about their behaviour

and if they ignore you and carry on they get punished, and if that means you have difficulty tough. Sort your kids out

I agree that children can act up for new teachers - I’ve been that teacher, but supporting the teacher doesn’t mean all children should be given a consequence for something they haven’t been part of.

She shouldn't keep the whole class back at the end of the day, that isn't fair to waiting parents. However it's not unusual with newly qualified teachers to have difficulties, give her a bit more time, she'll either make it and settle down or she won't.

Obviously some teachers are better at behaviour management than others, but that doesn't absolve the children of responsibility. They're choosing to behave badly; the teacher isn't making them do it.

A more experienced teacher is taking the class for a week next week to sort out the behaviour.

That seems to be a major admission by the school that this teacher can't do her job. It'll be interesting to see what the outcome is. If things don't improve radically afterwards, I'd suggest asking for an urgent group meeting with the head to discuss the problem and lay down some ground rules, including one that says whole class punishments won't be used.

Wouldn't work in grandsons class either as a taxi takes a couple of them home. Taxi drivers aren't going to wait

I’ve never known of a primary school where a teacher can keep kids behind after school as a punishment. It seems extraordinary that the Head allows it.

So all the parents, including OP are blaming the teacher when the issue is THEIR children's bad behaviour?

I think that's quite shocking actually.

I feel a lot of sympathy for a newly qualified , inexperienced teacher.

I wouldn’t let this happen to my child. Her time with my child ends at bell. No detention past school end would be tolerated even once. I also think missing breaks etc is really poor teaching strategies and I would be complaining. I don’t mind punishment if my child has misbehaved but it will be appropriate. Keeping active and hydrated and building their social skills Is far more important. Definitely complain. Even if your kid was misbehaving. This is not how to manage it.

Is it possibly that the kids are taking the piss because it's a new teacher?

Urgent conversation with the headteacher, why are primary schools giving unscheduled detentions out?

Are you agreeing with whole class punishments for just a few kids?

The way I have read it is it's a small few behaving badly, the teacher is punishing the whole class for it and now they don't respect her.

If you were at work and a colleague behaved unprofessionally, would you expect a formal warning over it because you work with them? Unsure why you think young children should be okay with it.

Consequences for the children behaving badly only. Although I still do not agree with withholding PE as a form of punishment.

Another teacher here. Normally, I’d say support the teacher, but she has it all wrong. Collective punishment is completely inappropriate, she needs to find a way to manage the behaviour of the ones misbehaving and ensure that all children take part in PE as it is part of the curriculum.

Unfortunately, ‘easy’ classes can misbehave for less experienced teachers, and she does need space to find her feet, but punishing the ones that do behave, removing curricular subjects, and annoying parents by being late out is not going to win her any supporters.

I would ask management about their behaviour policy and ask how they manage the behaviour of children not following the rules.