Starmer’s support for Palestine

[Steph888]

Am I alone in seeing this as one of the darkest days in UK history?

Never before did I think I’d end up living under a government who reward terrorism.

Starmer and Labour are grotesque. History will not be kind to them. They have now empowered all terrorists and their supporters.

We deserve such better than this reprehensible government. They disgust me.

Not one person has said that…. No one supports Hamas, we support innocent Palestinians and find it hard that people continue to support Netanyahu and the IDF. Every bit of proof and fact is denied by them and their supporters, see this thread, but a titk tok video about Hamas is taken as gospel. Yes hamas have done dreadful, unforgivable things, but so have Israel over the last 75 years and right now what they are doing is committing genocide

Are you genuinely tring to translate "Everyone condemned Hamas for what they did. Nobody supports the taking and holding of hostages." as saying 7th October was justified??? There is a difference between "justified" and "explainable" - this fight hs been going on for decades and neither side has clean hands. That doesn't make it right - it makes it about time people realised that this is not going to stop more innocent lives being lost.

And if you want to bring Afghanistan into this, that worked out so well, didn't it? You just proved my point. The force of arms achieved nothing. So what will it achieve now?

There are Israeli citizens including soldiers actively serving who want 2 state solution. This whole situation is anything but simple.

So where are the marches demanding the hostages are freed. Where are the placards condemning Hamas? How will recognising Hamas as a legitimate government help anyone? Surely demanding the hostages are freed and demanding Hamas apologise and face sanctions will de escalate things? Taking away Israel’s justification for the war may help. Hamas are claiming this as a victory. So the terrorists get rewarded.

How will recognising Hamas as a legitimate government help anyone?

Nobody has done that. Nobody will. You are now simply throwing out sentences to derail any serious discussion about a solution. You carry on hating. It will simply be returned in spades. That is all hatred has ever achieved.

Exactly this. If Palestinian kids were white and non Muslim the lack of empathy on this thread wouldn’t fly.

I think it's an impossible - and a very sad - situation. If Hamas had the money and power, we'd be seeing the same situation in reverse. The only conclusion I can come to is that violent conflict solves nothing.

That post was a response to people killed by Hamas.

I know. I’m no longer responding to that person because I know a lost cause/desperate propaganda peddling nonsense. All those kids were killed brutally and mercilessly by Israel without question and the poster has just said ‘well I don’t need to feel sorry for them because Hamas did it’.

What are you talking about?

The posters who repeat ‘beheaded babies has been debunked’ are not helping anyone.

If Israel are so terrible and brutal why are Hamas not releasing the hostages and bringing the war to an end? Why did one of their leaders go on TV to say they're a nation of martyrs and are happy to be martyrs for their cause?

If people really cared so much about the 'poor' Palestinians, where is the global pressure and condemnation of Hamas for starting this war and continuing it?

When they said that Netanyahu has betrayed the Israeli hostages and implied that's why they're not coming home.

Yet not admitted that Hamas has betrayed ordinary Gazans and that's why they're dying.

As the poster put it "simples"

Some things I notice on threads like these.

People asking "why don't you care about what Hamas did"? People saying criticising the actions of the Israeli government is anti-semetic.

Everyone knows anti-Semitism is real, and most people think it is horrendous.

Most people also think what Hamas did was horrific, heartbreaking, and would never condone it.

However, seeing as these same points are made on so many threads, I think most people already know that.

I think some posters say these things on threads like these purely in an attempt to shut down criticism of the actions of the Israeli government.

The UK is literally imploding and our Prime Minister's efforts to addressing that involve... publicly recognising Palestine as a state!?

Sorry, but WHEN is this Labour government actually going to start putting British people first.

The man is a disgrace!

Nonsense.

When were we ever consulted about our opinions on recognising Palestine ?

Wow. You're jumping through a lot of hoops here to avoid tackling the question of Hamas culpability in the deaths of Gazans.

You can only see the failures of Israel.
You blame only them for a genocide.
You blame only them for Israeli hostages dying.

If Hamas laid down their weapons and surrendered the hostages a year ago, do you think you would be seeing this devastation?

If Hamas had clear lines of separation between the military and civilian spaces do you think Israel would just be destroying civilian areas anyway?

You duck these considerations, which is whyi say you obviously have an agenda.

With the continued bombardment and starvation of Gaza, I genuinely wonder how many of those hostages are still alive? Surely if a peace deal is reached, any surviving hostages would be returned? The current situation helps nobody.

No. I dont think that's the case.

I think what's going on is a disgrace.

But by not including Hamas at every turn you end up with a simplistic solution worthy only of 6th formers.

It's easy to say just stop the killing. It's simple. It's logical. And i cant think of anyone who would disagree.

But you can't do that unilaterally.

Take it to its extreme conclusion and you end up with a situation where Israel has no options.

1. Hamas won't surrender
2. Hamas is massively intertwined with the civilian population
3. Hamas holds hostages and is torturing them, so time is of the essence.
4. Killing a member of Hamas will result in civilian injury and death - it cannot be avoided.
5. We dont want civilian injury and death
6. Israel owes a duty of care to its own soldiers so hand to hand fighting amongst a population where civilians and combatants are indistinguishable is not an option
7. Ergo, Israel can do nothing
8. Hamas can continue to take free shots at Israel

There is no solution without considering what Hamas has done / are doing / will do.

I take the opposite view to you. People's focus on only the Israeli actions hides any criticism for Hamas continuing this war.

At least Hitler killed himself towards the end thereby sparing some Germans (and ordinary Germans were possibly more complicit than Gazans).

If Hamas laid down their weapons and surrendered the hostages a year ago, do you think you would be seeing this devastation?

According to Israel, absolutely yes it would be .

If Hamas had clear lines of separation between the military and civilian spaces do you think Israel would just be destroying civilian areas anyway?

Yes given we already know they have the technology to do extremely exact strikes and are choosing instead to bombard areas they know are full of civilians. They're also literally snipping children with drones, so this line of they're accidently killing children while trying to target Hamas hasn't held any weight in months..

The original story was that there were 40 beheaded babies. 40 babies weren't killed at all. There were 37 minors killed on Oct 7, 2 of them babies. This is something I personally condemned repeatedly in the months following Oct 7, it's not something I feel the need to do in every single post that I make on this conflict 2 years on.

The difference bring herzog are not a recognised terrorist regime. Hamas are internationally recognised as terrorists.

You shouldn't have to defend every single statement about genocide in Gaza by explaining in detail why criticising a government committing genocide isn't hatred towards Jews. I believe everyone already know this very well.

Yet people pop up constantly saying criticism of the actions of the Israeli government is religious hatred, requiring that same discussion over and over again.

Everyone already knows that opposing genocide committed by a government is not religious hatred. Nor does opposing genocide suggest that religious hatred is not a real, deplorable thing. It's just not the same thing, as we all very well know.

Saying genocide is wrong does not imply that you think the actions of Hamas are excusable or that you haven't considered them.

It's very obvious that the issue here is that Israel's actions are disproportionate.

Endlessly coming back to those two points is just re-establishing the basics over and over, which I think is a way to avoid nuanced discussion or scrutiny of the actions of Israel.

I sincerely doubt anyone actually believes opposing genocide is anti-Semitic.

I also sincerely doubt that anyone thinks people who oppose genocide, a humanitarian issue, don't care about innocent Israelis being slaughtered, raped and taken hostage.

Much of that i agree with but you say...

It's very obvious that the issue here is that Israel's actions are disproportionate.

On the face of it one can't argue about that - certainly if you just.look at sheer numbers.

But my point is that, while that seems to be the case, what is the alternative without ending up in the absurd situation I enumerate.

What are/were Israel's proportionate options since this is disproportionate?

How do we (or should have) respond to ensure that in the first place?

‐------
A really bad analogy is my sister and her husband during their totally dysfunctional.marriage. She used to physically assault him and he'd leave the house, dripping blood from his nose down the garden path. She's 5' nothing and he's 6'3". He'd never hit back. If he did it would have been disproportionate. Since he didn't she carried on hitting him. Everybody said he must have deserved it (maybe he was annoying, i dont really know, but i do know she had a boyfriend). Thankfully they split up eventually. In that situation he could have called the police but it was last century and attitudes were different.

If he had hit back, given his overwhelming superiority, and broken her nose, would that have been a proportionate response, or disproportionate? Would he have been justified?

Interesting article from the Times of Israel, date 08/10/23. And thanks to James O'Brien for drawing attention to it;

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

This is what puzzles me. I find it surprising that people would support the UK's recognition in context - ie recognition without condition.