Starmer’s support for Palestine

[Steph888]

Am I alone in seeing this as one of the darkest days in UK history?

Never before did I think I’d end up living under a government who reward terrorism.

Starmer and Labour are grotesque. History will not be kind to them. They have now empowered all terrorists and their supporters.

We deserve such better than this reprehensible government. They disgust me.

And what was wrong with that promise? They actually gave 77% of the promised land to Jordan, then (in the partition plan) a further 45% of the remainder was offered to the Arabs. They rejected it, as they have every single offer for statehood and attempt at peace ever since.

The Arabs were never interested in having a state, all they want is for Jews not to have any sovereignty in their ancestral homeland.

We’re no more complicit than all the other states that have had a hand in that part of the Middle East. I don’t see Turkey wringing their hands over it.

Presumably you'd then agree that there's no excuse for the multitude of Israeli warcrimes that have occurred since the Nova Festival massacre, then?

But what happens when we have to sit round a table with these people? If we are recognising the existence of a Palestinian state, then surely with that comes the potential for having to sit and discuss issues of global importance with the terrorist leaders? On that basis alone, it was a stupid move by Starmer. Surely the best way would have been to ensure the elimination of Hamas and to move towards putting in a stable government before acknowledging existence.

Because experts in international diplomacy have been comparing Sinn Fein/ IRA to Hamas (of different parts of Hamas. It's not 100% unified) for decades? Because diplomats have said at various points in time there has been scope for guided diplomatic talks between representatives from the Israeli government and Hamas over the years?

I would expect those would be the reasons.

No political situation is exactly the same as another. But we do have examples of how different attempts to heal divisions have/ have not worked. For example the positives and negatives about the truth and reconciliation process in post-apartheid South Africa (the successes attributed to the personality and unifying presence of Mandela, but the challenges being around successors/ lack of natural unifying figure post-Mandela). The challenges that came out of the Dayton Accords which has led to effectively three governments rotating in Bosnia-Herzegovina rather than a true post conflict solution. If you want to get a good grounding in the background there's an excellent book by the late Paddy Ashdown who was involved in both Northern Ireland and Bosnia.

But yes, there is a good reason people are comparing the two scenarios.

This!

@SirHumphreyRocks "Actually it is the UN and every civilised nation in the world that insists that there is genocide"

So far, 14 countries have joined or signalled their intention to join South Africa’s genocide case against Israel in the World Court.
They include Belgium, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Egypt, Ireland, Spain, Libya, Maldives, Mexico, Nicaragua and Turkiye.

Out of those who has said they believe Israel is committing genocide are; Bolivia flagged up by Amnesty International for using child labour and Human Rights Abuses also Chile, Colombia, Egypt, Libya, lcw.ngo/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/08/HUMAN-RIGHTS-VIOLATIONS-IN-LIBYA-DURING-JULY-2025.pdf
Nicaragua and allegations against Cuba for on-line targeting of LGBT people.

People and glass houses come to mind...

Although Britain's promises were a little vague, most historians and lawyers interpret them to include recognizing all of Palestine as an Arab state, and that's how Arab leaders (reasonably) understood it. Based on that promise, local Arab leaders supported Britain against the Ottoman Empire, at the cost of around 60,000 lives.

But Britain had lied or, to be very kind to it, had been reckless and loose in its promises.

I happen to support a Jewish state in the region, but Britain made conflicting promises to different groups, to advance its own ends.

As a result, I believe Britain has some level of duty to all of the current occupants of the region, and to do all it reasonably can to advance their mutual wellbeing.

Is this a gotcha? Do you expect me to say it’s fine for the IDF to target civilians? I’ve clearly said that deliberately killing civilians is never justified. This is a boringly obvious point I shouldn’t have to make, but it seems I have to because some people on here literally support terrorism.

Well don’t worry. I expect that’s the next issue on Starmer’s ‘to do’ list….the puppet masters in government will make sure of that.

Well I suppose it depends on your views on a stable government doesn't it.

The Israeli government has been given a seat at the table, money, influence and power while committing war crimes on a world stage. They hold no more credibility than Hamas in my eyes.

The Israeli government has dropped explosives equivalent to five Hiroshima bombs on an area not much bigger than Birmingham. Evil fuckers.

The simples part of it is that you still only care about one side.
You can only quibble about genocide.

You seem to lack the humanity to recognise there are other people who are suffering in this war.

Your "non-agenda" is partisan, not for the words you use, but for the scope you care aboit

But that’s not in context with the post I was referencing, where it was referenced that of course the UK should accept that unpalatable decisions sometimes have to be made to progress peace, as what was done with th3 Good Friday agreement. My point was that the Northern Ireland peace process was needed to protect our own people. Whether we declare we recognise Palestine as a state means nothing unless Israel and other major global leaders are also in agreement. It’s irrelevant and something we shouldn't interject ourselves into. Free the Israeli hostages - even if dead, so that their families can have closure.

They’ve dropped explosives equivalent to five Hiroshima nuclear bombs on Gaza so far, obliterating almost every school, hospital and landmark and killing tens of thousands of children in the process. People hate Netanyahu and his cronies because they’re fucking evil.

Oh give over. Hamas are internationally recognised as a terrorist organisation. And the difference between how the leadership in Israel and in Palestine look after their own people is worlds apart. Hamas brought the hell upon their own people over the past 2 years, resulting in the deaths of thousands of Palestinians. They use the Palestinians as human shields. They intercept aid to sell on to line the pockets of their fat cat leaders, obviously stationed elsewhere in another country to protect their own skins. They’re a vile regime who don’t deserve to be given any credibility for what they’ve done, and continue to do.

Many people in Israel literally believe that Palestinian children are guilty and deserve everything they’ve suffered. For example :

And from politicians:
“The children in Gaza brought it upon themselves,' said Israeli Member of the Knesset Merav Ben-Ari during a debate about protecting civilians in the Gaza Strip.

And
“The enemy is not Hamas. Every child, every baby in Gaza is an enemy,” Former member of the Knesset Moshe Feiglin said during an interview.

@ThatDreamyLemonBiscuit "As a result, I believe Britain has some level of duty to all of the current occupants of the region, and to do all it reasonably can to advance their mutual wellbeing."

Well "Palestinians" didn't exist as a named people until they were given the title by Yasser Arafat. (who incidentally was Egyptian)Prior to that they were called "Arabs"

Even PLO leader Yasser Arafat admits as much in his authorized biography:
“If there is any such thing as a Palestinian people, it is I, Yasser Arafat, who created them.”

As Arab historian Abd Al-Ghani Salameh says, in 1917, “there was nothing called a Palestinian people.”

In 1937, a local Arab leader told the Palestine Royal Commission, “There is no such country [as Palestine]. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented! Our country for centuries was part of Syria.”

I haven't personally noted all of your posts, but I'm glad to hear your being even-handed on that.

I do, though, think its understandable that living conditions in Gaza, in particular, drive people toward Hamas. I don't think Hamas's leadership is, by any means, comprised of righteous freedom fighters - their ideology (though they purport to have softened - which I don't believe) is genocidal. If, though, you were born and raised in Gaza, lost several family members to Israeli violence, and grew up without any true sense of freedom...yeah, I understand that is going to radicalize people.

That isn't to justify the actions of Hamas fighters, particularly against civilians, but I can understand and (to an extent, excuse) the radicalization itself. I can understand Israeli radicalization too. For it to cease self-perpetusting, someone needs to rise above it, and given the disparity in military resources, living conditions and freedoms, it has to be Israel.

If a young adult in Gaza, today, has lost their parents, partner, children and friends to Israel's actions over the last 2 years, I'd find it hard to judge their becoming radicalized, even if I'd condem their resulting actions. I don't think it's half as simple as just choosing to embrace evil.

Quit the nonsense about human shields - it doesn’t fly. Israel has flattened the majority of Gaza. Five Hiroshimas worth of explosives. Drone videos on YouTube show the incredible, sickening extent of the devastation. Many in Israel care exactly as much about the lives of innocent Palestinian children as they do about Hamas fighters - ie zero. It will take many decades of even centuries for Gaza to be rebuilt.

All irrelevant.

If you promise certain land to certain people, and they expend lives based on that, is does not matter whether they had a specific national identity tied to a certain portion of the lands promised to them.

Again - that doesnt mean I think the promise should now be honored - more that it shouldn't have been made.

So what? The Israeli government are just as much terrorists as Hamas are and our government happily meet with them

Netanyahu has betrayed the hostages by devastating the entirety of Gaza, murdering thousands upon thousands of innocent, including many of the Israeli hostages as collateral damage (to use the horrid political term).

As are the Israeli government.

Vile, war criminals responsible for an internationally recognised genocide and responsible for the murder and starvation of innocent men, women and children.

Of course that would only matter to a person if they believed that the the life of Palestines actually mattered.

Unfortunately exactly this.. and only this.