Starmer’s support for Palestine

[Steph888]

Am I alone in seeing this as one of the darkest days in UK history?

Never before did I think I’d end up living under a government who reward terrorism.

Starmer and Labour are grotesque. History will not be kind to them. They have now empowered all terrorists and their supporters.

We deserve such better than this reprehensible government. They disgust me.

I completely agree (apart from the bit about Starmer, I'm reserving judgment on that). As much as I feel the actions of Israel in Gaza are disproportionate I do think it was entirely predictable that this would be the response to the attack on October 7th. Hamas provoked the response and I will never understand why.

So is the Myanamar military being held to account for the massacre of the Rohingya Muslims?

How about Darfur, Mali, Yemen, Burkina Faso or Cameroon ?

Or is it a case of "no Jews, no news"?

I have. She told me that anti Zionism was antisemitism, then called me racist and a hypocrite for being in support of the Palestinians who are suffering. She is a former friend- emphasis on the word former.

Ooh yes. And handing over the hostages Hamas are still torturing. I mean,surely that would be a start to showing Hamas were more than terrorists wouldn’t it?

And China. They are wiping out the Uyghurs. Can’t see anyone protecting for them.

The majority of the people protesting just want the genocide to stop. No hidden agenda.

Do you not see how your very statement has an agenda.

You want the genocide to stop.

Which immediately is political by describing it as genocide, not killings (which may or not be a byproduct of a war against hamas), or starvation (which may or not be a function of Hamas having previously appropriated and controlled aid to the people).

And does not include anything about IDF soldiers dying, or hostages suffering.

Etc.

You cannot see how heavily you are invested in the agenda that this is all Israel's fault and somehow Hamas are.not complicit in what you insist is genocide.

Because that's how they wage war. They are often accused of using their own people as human shields but actually they use their own people as cannon fodder and sacrificial lambs, except it's not a sacrifice to them. No Palestinian death toll is too high for them if it means they can kill Israelis or turn the international community on Israel.

They do not give a shit about their own people, they just hate Jews. They are a death cult.

At the start of recent hostiles I was very Israel sympathetic.

That has since completely eroded. Yes, it still has the right to exist, but its current government is no better than Hamas.

And it isnt even just about Palestine anymore. Israel is breaching international law with impunity.

If it didn't have the US playing enabler, I'd support military action against Israel.

Great, we could become like Lebanon but with shit weather.

Depends what you mean by anti-zionism though.

Anti settlements and border expansion? Or against the right of the state of Israel to exist to begin with?

The recognition is a little too late and not enough. Sanctions, full arms embargo and Hotoveley needs to be expelled.

Hamas agreed to the last ceasefire which led to the release of the hostages

And yet at the same time constantly spouting stuff like this;

Senior Hamas leader Khalil al-Hayya praised the October 7 massacre as a major achievement that would be taught to future generations of Palestinians with pride, while touting the ceasefire-hostage deal that was announced shortly before he spoke Wednesday as a “historic moment.”

The deadliest slaughter of Jews in a single day since the Holocaust was a “military accomplishment” and “a source of pride for our people… to be passed down from generation to generation,” al-Hayya said.

Hamas’s top negotiator in the ceasefire and hostage talks said despite suing for an end to the war, the group would continue to pursue Israel’s destruction, looking toward Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa Mosque as a “compass.”

“Our people will expel the occupation from our land and from Jerusalem at the earliest time possible,” said al-Hayya.

“Our enemy will never see a moment of weakness from us,” he added.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-leader-touts-ceasefire-as-a-defeat-for-israel-while-hailing-oct-7-atrocities/

Actually it is the UN and every civilised nation in the world that insists that there is genocide. Because in law Israel is committing genocide. It's not "an agenda". It is a fact. Israel is being held to account for that fact because it wishes to be part of an international community that sets standards of behaviour. It can stop being part of that international community any time it wants. With the consequences that entails.

On the other hand, if you want to hold Palestine to those standards- and I'm sure they'd be happy with that - then something needs to happen first. They need to be a state. And the sooner that happens, the sooner they can be held to the standards that Israel is ignoring.

Simples...

I'm strongly against Israel's actions now (genuinely, in a world without the US's unwavering support, I'd support military action against Israel in current circumstances) but I do agree that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. You're probably having a disconnect in terminology.

For most people, around the world, "Zionism" has a broad meaning - including those who simply believe Israel should continue to exist, as a Jewish state. The British left uses a much narrower meaning (only encapsulating those who support further expansion and violence).

I'm not Jewish, but am a Zionist in that I think a Jewish state is necessary for the safety of the Jewish people (I don't love there being an ethno-state in concept, but think its needed in practice). Anti-Zionism, to most, calls for the dismantling of the Jewish state which, realistically, likely ends in genocide of the Jewish people (or at least, widespread violence against them).

The British left (of which I am one), unfortunately, does have a profound issue with Antisemitism. That doesn't excuse Israel's actions, though, which are atrocious. It's acting as a terrorist state.

BBC dont have much choice since Israel won't allow reporters into Gaza to observe for themselves. They do always make it clear where the information is coming from.

Yep. But to promote their ‘cause’. Now going up in celebration that our PM has sold his soul to the devil to appease the lefties in his party.

... Have you entirely forgotten the Good Friday agreement? Truth and reconciliation has been proven to be more effective in diplomatic situations like this.

... Have you also forgotten how the state of Israel was founded? It followed Zionist terrorist attacks in British-controlled Palestine. Following the UK leaving India, and given the increasing attacks by militant Zionist groups of British citizens and soldiers - the UK withdrew. Within days both the US and Russia recognised Israel.

from the River to the Sea

Ah, that well known anti-Semitic phrase. So you want Palestine state to be recognised, but want Israel wiped out. The irony of your bigoted comment….

Why do people keep comparing the Northern Ireland peace agreement with what’s happening in Gaza? Northern Ireland is part of the UK. We had to make unpalatable decisions to promote peace in our country. Gaza is somewhere in the Middle East which is nothing to do with us. Not our circus….

There is plenty of counter evidence on offer. There is no evidence of a genocide taking place in Gaza - a lot of people agreeing that there is one doesn't mean that it's true. The numbers of dead are greatly exaggerated by Hamas. Hamas install their leaders in hospitals and schools, precisely to use their own people as collaterol damage, human shields, and as part of their propaganda campaign. Is there starvation? If so, it's because Hamas are deeply corrupt and steal the aid that goes in - evidence has been presented on this thread already that Israel is not preventing aid to Gaza. Is there suffering and death and injury? Absolutely. It's war. Are there awful atrocities? Undoubtedly. It's a war.

Let me ask you then to answer these questions. If there's a genocide, why does Israel continue to send in aid? Why did they offer a deal (more than one) with Hamas? Why did they call a ceasefire? Why did they release terrorists from prisons? Why do they continue to provide and allow aid into Gaza? They have the firepower to wipe out Gaza in a day - why haven't they done it? Why do they continue with targeted tactics like the pager explosions if they're not trying to avoid civilian casualties? It doesn't make any sense that they would do these things if their aim was genocide.

Conversely, no one talks about the Palestinians' explicity and repeatedly stated intention to commit genocide against the Jews. Hamas leaders literally look up to Hitler. They are consumed with racist hatred against Jewish people and would like not a single one left alive. This is all well documented over a number of years. And when Palestinians murdered and violated Jews on October 7th, they videoed it and shared it with their mothers and grandmothers to make them proud. They started a war and they could have ended it several times by now, by simply giving back the hostages and agreeing to a deal. But they won't do that, because they have made useful idiots of so many people, like Keir Starmer, and they use this support to continue their campaign of terror and hatred.

Do I think Israel are angelic and can't be criticised? Not at all. But there is a complete lack of balance in reporting on Israel/Gaza. For whatever reason (it's anti semitism, by the way) Israel are painted as evil aggressors wanting to wipe out an entire people. In truth, it is the other way around.

I don't know why you find me so despicable, simply for holding a view that is different to yours. It blows my mind that you think the people I love and who love me would think any less of me for my valid opinions, whether or not they agree. Says a lot more about you than it does about me, I think.

History can be manipulated to defend any cause you like, but the fact remains that murdering a civilian is a moral absolute. You seem to want to argue that if you are oppressed enough, targeting innocents is ok. If you go down this route you find yourself in a place where anyone who believes strongly enough in their cause feels they have a right to kill for it.

Who decides when murdering innocent people is justified? Who decides who should die?

No it's not. You can recognise the right for a country to exist without recognising legitimacy of the leaders of said country.

If Palestine doesn't exist then Israel isn't stealing land or displacing/destroying the population of said land as they don't exist and have no rights.

Britain has more responsibility than most. It promised statehood to the Jewish and Arab occupants of the land. We are very much complicit (even before you get onto the issue of military support and arms sales).

(I agree with you condemning the "From the River to the Sea" slogan's use in here, though).

Saying ‘the English/Israelis made them terrorists’ is pure emotional manipulation. ‘Look what you made me do’. Sometimes government action makes terrorism more likely but it never justifies it.