Do your strict British schools get good academic results?

[Briwi]

I'm a Brit who left UK for New Zealand 20 years ago (still hanging around Mumsnet like a restless spirit!)

I'm often quite shocked by some of the threads about schools and how strict they are. Detentions for doodling?! Detentions for 13 yr olds in the first week of high school because they have the wrong shoes?!! That would never happen here.

I realise this is a massive, big picture question, but just to focus in on the strictness and detentions - do they help? Are they a good thing? Do they make students more successful academically?

Like any education system, NZ has it's pros and cons. I like the positive, respectful nature of education here - but it's also not terribly academically rigorous, imo.

The state school with the best results in the country by far is the most famously strict one.

Yes but mostly because they drive the kids who won't achieve good GSCE results out of the school before they sit the exams. Or they only let them sit exams that they are sure to achieve their top grades. So if they'd get between the equivalent of Cs-Fs across all kf their exams. They'll let them sit the ones where they are predicted Cs and Ds only.

Yes. Same correlation in any school anywhere, regardless of how selective it is.

Yes.

My eldest daughter attends our local girls grammar school. The school was ranked first in the county in two league tables for GCSE results and is reasonably strict but not overly. They don’t hand out detentions for frivolous reasons. They have great pastoral care too which helps and when there was a case of name calling following some of the girls home on social
media, the school were all over it and talked to the whole class to resolve it.

But lots of other schools using similar rules haven't seen anything like the same success

Michaela attracts a lot of very aspirant recent immigrant families who tend to do well in many schools
(They also have a reputation for managing out anyone with any kind of SEN.)

The same methodology used in schools in deprived post-industrial areas or those rural areas where there is only one secondary school for miles has been much less successful because the students and families are not as supportive of education in general.

My kids go to a strict school and are thriving. Their school is in the top 3 for our area for GCSE results

My kids came over to the UK from NZ when they were 12 and 14.

I think it's fair to say the educational experience wasn't as enjoyable, nor as relaxed as the NZ one. They found the noise and chaoticness really hard to deal with, as well as the fucking stupid rules like having to ask permission to take your jumper off, that sort of crap.

It's a lot more learning by rote, and reminded me of pigs being fattened for market - forcing in as much information as possible.

On the other hand, the teachers, in general, were fantastic - really engaged and incredibly willing to go the extra mile to help a willing and able student. They're as much prisoners of the system as the kids.

I think my girls got a far more extensive and thorough education than they would have in NZ - in the sciences for example, DH said they were doing stuff more like first year Uni in NZ and well beyond what they would have been studying in the equivalent year.

GCSEs, the number of subjects and exams is bloody ridiculous.

I roll my eyes when I hear politicians etc wondering with faux concern why so many kids are suffering crippling anxiety and other mental health issues, and why there is so much absenteeism.

One thing I fiercely resisted, was pressure about the kids being off sick, and to send them to school whether they were sick or not. I get it, the school's concern is the kids' education, and their stat's for Ofstead. My concern is for my child, their education, and the whole child.

Oh, and my kids were in a bog standard comp, that was relatively relaxed.

DC are at an independent and they have the balance about right I think. They don’t tolerate bad behaviour but detentions are saved for fairly serious offences - fighting, bullying, rudeness to staff, vaping etc. They get good results but the demographic is predictably pretty middle class and the kids fairly engaged on the whole.

The school I work in is either top or second in our authority every year for both a-level and GCSE results. We are heavily oversubscribed with a great reputation. But I am shocked how strict some schools are that I read about on here!

Unlike others, we've had a very different experience. DD goes to the comprehensive with the best results in our city (over 80% leave with 5+ in both maths and English; well over half get 7+ in maths). While there's certainly a disciplinary system (there has to be), it's no where near as strict as some of the others. There are 3 schools in the city with similar results. It's the others which are really strict, with after school detentions for really minor things (e.g. forgetting a pen). The pastoral support at DD's school is excellent. I'm told that there is low-level disruption in some lessons, but clearly not enough to seriously inhibit learning. We are very very grateful DD got a place there.

I was educated in England. My kids were educated in NZ and I've not been impressed with the NZ education system at all. There's a massive "she'll be right" attitude. It's true that NZ schools aren't at strict, but it's also true that they have a recognised bullying problem and I reckon a bit of discipline rather than the soft-headedness I observed among the teachers would fix that problem. Imagine a parent smiling benignly at a couple of kids glued to computer game and taking the occasional swipe at each other, and that's the NZ education system.

My son is very smart. Had to remove him in the end from ‘excellent’ schools as he’s neurodivergent and couldn’t cope with the rigidity on uniform (suits in 6th form) and various other restrictions. He’s currently thriving in a so called mediocre comprehensive 6th form because he can be himself, dress and relax as himself without judgement and just listen to the teacher. 🤯

I used to teach at one of the top comps in the U.K. it wasn’t particularly strict.

No uniform at all for 12/13.

I do get the feeling that things have changed quite a bit in English schools over the last 20 years. The impression I had back then is (ironically) that they were like the school in Adolescence. The comments I read now is that discipline is way tighter and there's a lot more focus.

I can't imagine that uniform works well for neurodivergent kids but here in NZ such children are unlikely to get any sort of accomodation except extra time in exams and extensions on deadlines so I imagine English schools are ahead on that front too.

Any actual evidence that Michaela manage out people with SEN? I think this sounds like nonsense.

The similar school in my city was 2nd in the country. Michaela’s was first.

l don’t like this system but the school is massively oversubscribed.

I don't think you can compare strict or not. The British education system is in a different league to NZ from nursery to university, and I'm a kiwi!

So much so that my son requires AAA in A-levels for a particular course at good uni in UK, the same course at the University of Auckland is BCC.

There was a thread on Michaela recently and I don't think the claim that it manages out SEN children was substantiated.

I couldn't say whether or not it's true but I will say that one of my children is neurodivergent and strict rules and clear boundaries work way better for her than niceness and easygoingness because she doesn't have to expend effort figuring out what's expected of her and she can focus on her work.

I went to a very similar school - it's usually top 20 in the country. We were allowed a certain degree of good natured mucking about because we all ultimately wanted to get the work done. I think the staff almost enjoyed when we took stuff a bit too far, because it never went too-too far. I'm not sure anyone in my class ever got a detention; one girl got sent home for dying her hair bright purple. I appreciate not all schools have the same demographic but we appreciated that we were trusted and not micromanaged.

I actually think schools should be slightly chaotic - in a positive way. There should be room for joy. I went to an academy on a work visit and it had signs everywhere saying "walk silently and with purpose" and even as an adult I thought, "I'll walk how I like thanks."

DH’s school (he’s a teacher, I’m not married to a child) is strict and gets exceptional results, it’s massively oversubscribed and they have to warn prospective parents of that over and over. The way he describes it…they crack down on the little things and the kids very, very rarely push the big things. Things like mobiles it’s a gate to gate rule…once you’re in the gate it can’t be seen until you leave the gate. Uniform is a tight policy, DH reckons this makes a massive difference.

Look at the latest PISA results. England scores pretty well

This is interesting.

I agree that the NZ education system is too relaxed. Bright students can succeed, but in the average state high school there needs to be a level of self-motivation to do so. Anyone who wants to sit at the back of the class and slack off will not be made to work hard.

But I can't quite get my head around detention for forgetting a pen!! Surely that just breaks down the teacher-student relationship?

@mbosnz - the pressure not to take a sick day is another thing on MN that I find shocking. It does seem to prioritise spreadsheets over individual wellness.

My girls found that it was similar here - if you want to learn, you will be helped to fulfill your potential and achieve your goals, as best as you can. If you don't, well, you can muddle your way through, muck your way up, just the way you can in NZ.

As for bullying - um, yeah, there's bullying here too, specially in the stair wells, and corridors. I was a bit startled when my daughters came home, and a kid who had been expelled managed to get not just into the grounds, but into the buildings WITH A KNIFE, to come after some other kids. That sure as shit never happened at Burnside, lol.

I think it would have been a lot harder for my eldest DD to achieve her goal of studying medicine in NZ. Only having two med schools in the country doesn't help of course!