Do your strict British schools get good academic results?

[Briwi]

I'm a Brit who left UK for New Zealand 20 years ago (still hanging around Mumsnet like a restless spirit!)

I'm often quite shocked by some of the threads about schools and how strict they are. Detentions for doodling?! Detentions for 13 yr olds in the first week of high school because they have the wrong shoes?!! That would never happen here.

I realise this is a massive, big picture question, but just to focus in on the strictness and detentions - do they help? Are they a good thing? Do they make students more successful academically?

Like any education system, NZ has it's pros and cons. I like the positive, respectful nature of education here - but it's also not terribly academically rigorous, imo.

The headteacher once claimed on Twitter that none of her pupils had ADHD. Can’t find it again now (it was a while ago) but did find this from an interview in The Times:

Tbh I agree with what she says about dyslexia and ADHD - I think in many cases they are not the result of any underlying pathology, but a response to poor classroom or home environments combined with teaching not meeting that child’s needs (difficult when it’s one teacher to 30 kids in a disruptive classroom). Combined with the slackness of the diagnostic criteria for those conditions, I think she’s not wrong.

And I’m absolutely on board with dententions for not bringing a pen. That’s the absolute basics of turning up to school, and I bet none of those kids have ever forgotten their phones, have they?

😡😡😡😡😡

Adhd destroyed my DD’s life for 5 years. She was hardworking and polite and we brought her up like that.

Oh to be able to say such glib and ignorant comments.

It does fucking exist. You can see it in brain scans.

And dyslexia is now viewed as one of the ‘D’s’ and is considered part of ND.

Tell me you’re ignorant without telling me you’re ignorant.

Oh read the post. I never said they don’t exist, but that they are a convenient catch all that absolves society of asking harder questions about the quality of our classrooms. It’s far easier these days to chuck a kid down the SEN route than understand what is actually going on in classrooms, and fund and adapt those classrooms accordingly. There’s literally a thread on here full of SEN parents desperate for schools with quiet, ordered, regulated classrooms for their academically able kids.

Not everything is a personal attack on you.

And for what it’s worth, the admission criteria for Michaela prioritises siblings, staff children and then it’s a random allocation of children within 5 miles.

We have lower adhd diagnosis than a lot of the developed world. 50% lower.

Undiagnosed ND is a main factor is prison populations. And costs the NHS ( l think- may have to check this ) £7billion a year.

They are under diagnosed disabilities not ‘catch alls’

Any selective school will look good on league tables because the less academically able will have been weeded out at 11, so your point about excellent GCSE results isn't really relevant.

Could you provide some figures for those diagnoses?

Yes, this. My ND DD likes clear rules. She knows what's expected of her. I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out that a school with clear rules will mean fewer ND kids need allowances as they're already doing fine.

Rules for the sake of bullying won't work. I remember being taught by some frightful bullies of teachers. But that is a separate issue.

Different ND children need different environments though.
Punishments don't make my DD with ADHD less likely to forget to bring her homework in, or not to somehow lose it between arriving at school and 2nd period. The fear of forgetting things makes her forget other things.
Whereas my other DD.. she thrives on strict rules.

(But the narrow curriculum at Micheala wouldn't suit either of them. Although I think other schools should be looking atvtheir methods for English and Maths!)

I honestly think it is about intake.

London overall has better outcomes for equivalent socioeconomic status. I think (a) immigrants have made the effort to move here and are often very aspirant and (b) some of the post-industrial and post-agricultural areas have big issues of hopelessness and lack of engagement with society.

UK education standard have been dropping for a while, I doubt mad detention rules are really helpful though
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/dec/05/uk-pupils-science-and-maths-scores-lowest-since-2006-in-international-tests

As for bullying - um, yeah, there's bullying here too, specially in the stair wells, and corridors. I was a bit startled when my daughters came home, and a kid who had been expelled managed to get not just into the grounds, but into the buildings WITH A KNIFE, to come after some other kids. That sure as shit never happened at Burnside, lol.

It happened in Sheffield earlier on this year 🙁

I think the operative word here is 'famously'!

If you read the pages of rules of some of the academy trust schools in London, they sound as strict if not stricter - like something from the penal system rather than education, whereas Michaela just sounds a bit cultlike. Also the good results could be based on higher than average ability on intake.

Which in answer to OP's question, GCSE results in relation to ability on intake for every secondary school in England are published on the government website. However, it would take months of painstaking research to get a definitive answer to the question.

I don’t think there would be any causal link between strictness and attainment once you control for SEND and self selection. Generally neurotypical children without any SEND with immigrant parents will do well in school. The main thing the strictness achieves is covert selection.

The other thing that stands out about Michaela is that it was a new build. Every child who has gone their, went knowing the expectations. Being in a very populous area of London also means that there are options for parents who would like something less regimented.

I think where new managers have come into other schools and retro-fitted the rules, teachers have not all been on board, parents have been cross that it's not what they signed up for and students have had their daily life upturned. And if you live in a rural area or somewhere near a small coastal town, there may not be another school within travelling distance

Progress measures take into account prior attainment and Michaela has the highest progress 8 score in the country. You can also look up their SEN percentages which are slightly lower than the country average but nothing that suggests that they actively remove pupils with SEN.

But this is a silly suggestion.

The strict schools are literally spending more time learning. The policies are designed to achieve this. Why would they not do better than another school where kids troop in late to lessons and spend half the time staring out of the window?

I don't think it is necessary to be strict for the sake of it, which almost implies a low level issue with behaviour. Dd's private school has sanctions but has 24% SEN intake, so they prefer to dangle carrots and praise as it gets better results (half of all GCSEs 9-7). This works for the cohort. Some kids must really thrive in a stricter environment such as WA or the London Grammars/Indies as they get very high marks and can be far stricter on things like uniform and doodling as you say (even though doodling can be a focus technique for SEN, as an aside). This is why it's important to know your kids and for Phillipson not to penalise private schools that cater for kids that don't always do well in State offerings.

The way he describes it…they crack down on the little things and the kids very, very rarely push the big things. Things like mobiles it’s a gate to gate rule…once you’re in the gate it can’t be seen until you leave the gate.

I think that is a big thing and a reasonable rule. Detentions for doodling in your jotter, not so much. (I'd never have been out of detention if that had been a rule when I was at school).

Do you?
Any evidence for that?

Someone upthread has posted Ms Birbalsingh's views on dyslexia and ADHD. Their original SEN approach was very dismissive of some children's additional needs. I know this because I have taught in Brent and students with mild learning difficulties (children who will not get 8 GCSEs but who are in no way going to get a special school place) found themselves with hours of additional drill and practice interventions that made no impact other than to make them miserable. It's not your fault if you have foetal alcohol syndrome; you will find learning harder than other students.

Interventions work well if the young person missed out previously or your last school was crap. If you simply find learning harder, those interventions often don't make a huge difference.

Maybe Michaela isn't the right place for your son

See.. as a teacher who has taught in these schools, I'm not actually sure that this is even true. While it's correct that the strict behaviour policies have been implemented to ensure that more time in the classroom is soent on learning - the reality is often quite different.

It has become the culture in some schools for children to simply be in detention, every single day, because they forgot their pen. Or because they wore a black cardigan instead of their blazer. The detentions have zero impact on them. If anything, I think it's seen as an act of rebellion to continually be given detentions. The students simply don't care, and are not interested in conforming. And then what do you do, if the rules (and consequences) don't have the desired effect?

Really agree. It’s not just forgetting a pen. But what if they forget a protracted or a ruler. The teachers here are stretched enough as it is without having to supply equipment to kids.

Those that want to learn turn up with the right equipment. Simple. Those that can’t afford it can get help from school. There’s no excuse for not coming to school prepared.

you wouldnt get very far in the real world without the correct equipment.

Rather than look at progress 8, I looked at GCSE results against prior attainment and saw their ability on intake was: Lower 8%, Middle 43% and Higher 39%. Not sure what the average is and can't find it anywhere but think it's about 25, 50, 25, so overall Michaela students are a pretty bright bunch anyway.

As a kid I had undiagnosed SEN and knew I'd have to stand outside with one teacher every week, because she had confiscated items I needed for the lessons and as a boarder I couldn't replace them. So I never got to do her 2 subjects as a result. Not sure what she achieved by this other than ensuring I didn't take her classes at GCSE. I got A's for what I did take but she had decided because I was forgetful and doodled I was a trouble maker... Often it seems to be subconscious selection bias (if we are feeling generous).