Do your strict British schools get good academic results?

[Briwi]

I'm a Brit who left UK for New Zealand 20 years ago (still hanging around Mumsnet like a restless spirit!)

I'm often quite shocked by some of the threads about schools and how strict they are. Detentions for doodling?! Detentions for 13 yr olds in the first week of high school because they have the wrong shoes?!! That would never happen here.

I realise this is a massive, big picture question, but just to focus in on the strictness and detentions - do they help? Are they a good thing? Do they make students more successful academically?

Like any education system, NZ has it's pros and cons. I like the positive, respectful nature of education here - but it's also not terribly academically rigorous, imo.

28 years a teacher and l never gave detentions for not having a pen. Pointless waste of time. Just let them write in whatever they had.

It is interesting that you minimise the reasons for detentions.
Its not the "doodling" or forgetting the pen (as much as parents will say that it is) it is the disruption around the "doodling" and "forgetting the pen".

Most detentions for uniform infractions are given by SLT, which shows you how little some actually do.

One of the biggest issues in teaching in England is that the responsibility for grades is placed entirely on the teacher.

The school that I work in is definitely not strict. There is the option to give out detentions for lack of equipment but very few teachers use it. Instead, the first 10 minutes of any class seems to be taken up with children asking for pens or sitting doing nothing until the teacher notices that they don't have one. It is always the same children, they just can't be bothered to carry a pen around. Their results aren't dreadful but they aren't great.

I asked my dc about the school they go to which has the reputation of being stricter. Apparently, people don't forget pens there. So their lessons clearly aren't being disrupted in the same way. Their results are very good.

I have to say though, while my dc's school is strict, it is not as strict as these super strict ones styled on the Michaela school. I dont think I would like that for my dc even if the results are fantastic.

The Michaela school doesn’t have the best results - it has the best progress. The best results are found in the grammar schools which , around here, are not strict schools. Parents like and support strict schools and know they will suit dc. Other parents run a mile. There are very pleasant schools with good results that are not strict. Most independent ones for a start.

What if they dont have anything to write with?

I’d give them something. Always got it back.

The world didn’t end without detention. All they learn is to be pissed off about getting detentions for stupid things which leads to resentment.

Hiw about ‘Yeah we all forget stuff sometimes, it happens’

Serial miscreants would be treated differently.

In a (usually leafy) area with supportive parents a school can do well with moderate discipline. In other areas, where parents of badly behaved students are often hostile and defensive, a boot camp style school is necessary to allow the teachers to teach.

Tbh I just spent three years in a "strict" secondary school in the UK, and the behaviour was appalling. Think students regularly truanting, swearing at staff, assaulting staff, bringing knives into school, and bullying was rife too.

The worst behaved students were rarely in class and spent most of their time either in the exclusion room or suspended. About 70% of all students would sit detentions for losing their pen (or deliberately destroying it, spreading ink all over their hands, the desk, and classroom carpet). Most detentions were handed out for talking in class, and refusing to complete the work set. A tiny minority were always well behaved, came to class with the correct equipment, and completed the work.

Schools are strict but, in my view, constant detentions for every little thing has a really negative effect on the teacher-student relationship. And there don't seem to be any meaningful consequences for the students whose behaviour is really concerning. So I dont know what the answer is. But I found the strict, detention-focused approach just really depressing to work in, as a teacher.

My English school was like that (issuing detentions for uniform infractions, for example). I hated it but I've come to recognise that the discipline served precisely that purpose - to avoid the sort of breakdown that @FeistyFrankie describes. The best solution to that is not to have that situation develop in the first place. I learned a lot of things that my kids just weren't taught at their NZ schools. There's also an expectation in NZ that parents help complete homework (rather than just setting expectations), even at high school level. I just got on with it myself when I was at school because I knew I'd be in detention and in trouble if I didn't hand it in on time. A bit of fear is good.

Yes it’s called discipline. They weed out the ones that aren’t interested and won’t go on to further education so that more time can be spent on those that work hard

I think the current British obsession with strictness is counterproductive. As for results: the best British schools are excellent but with all the ways of massaging the statistics, it's hard to say for sure that it produces academic results. I know that I would never have chosen to put my SEN children in Michaela or similar; I know they could never comply with the rules. So even if Michaela don't counsel out SEN pupils, they may discourage some from applying.

My experience has been that rules need to be clear and enforced, but that they need not be draconian. On MN people seem to act as if the only choices are this sort of rigid discipline or chaos, nothing in between.

I worked as a TA at a school in Central London for 1 term and felt the same. Things were so strict in a way that just felt disrespectful to the students' humanity. One example- I was in PE with year 7s when a girl got her period and I had to escort her inside to use the toilet (fair enough). All the toilets were locked. Eventually I had to ask another passing member of staff where I could take her, which was a single unlocked toilet on the 3rd floor. This was humiliating for her and disruptive as it took 3 times as long as if we could have used the nearest one.

Other rules included one that pupils must have a reading book with them at all times, for quiet reading. It had to be from the school library, and you had to log your progress in a journal thing. If you were found to have finished your book and not sourced another before the next lesson, you would get a detention.

Plus the standard constant uniform nitpicking, lack of self expression (had to use standard issue stuff right down to pencil cases), lack of bodily autonomy, and so on. I hated being there so left.

I would take issue with 'same correlation in any school anywhere'.

There are more ways of achieving academic success than detentions for infractions of silly uniforms.

One of my friends is a teacher in a fairly average comprehensive- average in terms of ability range and socioeconomics. She has told me that since the pandemic the behaviour has dramatically worsened. She said they are now getting kids throwing chairs in classrooms, which has never happened before.

It is a good school. I used to be a governor at the same school. The head always used to say that behaviour management was the top priority because without that, education could not happen.

So, I imagine schools are getting tougher and tougher on behaviour because it is getting worse. There is another thread on here about how adult behaviour has been worse since the pandemic too - there is a lot talk of people sitting in public transport having speaker phone calls out loud or playing music out loud.

They are suppressing potential.

Kids rebel.

Ours are at an independent. I’d say it’s much less strict than the local comps for the “small stuff” - eg uniform infringements are a chat with the pupil and an informal email home. An incident of WhatsApp bullying however was taken extremely seriously - Saturday detention and agreeing an “at home” punishment with the parents.

Yes, in my experience (based on the half a dozen state secondary schools in my local town) the stricter schools tend to get better academic results.

My DC go to a private selective school that often tops the league tables. It’s not strict in the sense of petty rules.

No uniform. Very few detentions (neither DC has had one, and that’s true for most of the pupils). No rules on hair colour or make up. No problem with time off to for music or other extracurricular opportunities, but with the expectation that it’s their responsibility to work out what they’ve missed, and catch up. Lots of taking responsibility for their own learning and taking the hit (in terms of doing less well than they hoped) if they don’t.

It only works for DC who actually enjoy learning and / or are conscientious. DC who are bright but lazy tend to be pushed by their parents (who are paying a lot and very invested) - the school supports but won’t spoon feed or nag.

The school, with traditionally quite poor results that I’ve worked at for decades has suddenly become extremely strict - detentions for the wrong socks/ forgotten pens etc. It has had an amazing impact in the classroom - suddenly low level disruption has disappeared and students are listening and working hard. No doubt our results will skyrocket.

Generally the schools with the best results have parents who are engaged with their dc’s education and are academically able themselves. Obviously private schools (non Sen) fit this criteria as parents who don’t care wouldn’t pay for private, of state schools it tends to either me those who are selective (again makes sense) or those in areas where there’s lots of schools and parents who are willing to push get the places, strict schools are popular with parents so the sharpest elbows (involved parents) get the places. Disruptive pupils are a major issue in schools.

all that said, my local high school, only one in my town, gets good results, top 15% nationally and has lax uniform based on what they look like traveling to school, and isn’t known to be strict, quite artsy in fact but the predominant demographic in my town is affluent (huge upmarket development tripling the population) meaning that the dc at the school are mostly advantaged

Strictness can be subjective. My DDs are at what is known as the "strict" school in our LEA. I find it nowhere near as strict as my own school days. Wrong shoes for example... they will lend the child the right type for a few days (or even just give them if its a financial problem) rather than going straight to a strike. (3 strikes is a detention). There is a part of me that thinks its ridiculous that apparently my child can't learn efficiently wearing trainers instead of shoes but I understand that uniform codes do need firm lines.
It also has the best GCSE scores and Progress scores in the city... but its one of the more affluent areas. (But covers everything from £1million+ homes to farming and ex coal villages to a council estate... its just typical of the general area really. Most importantly a lot of the parents care deeply about education so support the school. Parents evenings are always ramned, parents turn up to watch sports matches, the school productions sell out multiple nights etc.

So its not one factor making it a successful school. Its a range of factors.

I’ve always wondered is it because they only cherry pick certain parts of it or do not give it time for I bed in before moving on to the next fad.

Not everyone can go to university.,,,,,

Why should the less able be disregarded? Isn’t this discrimination?

Encouraging discipline and work ethic is good for all school students, regardless of what they do once they've completed school. Unless they go for a life of crime, perhaps.

My DCs go to a relatively strict school.

Detentions for forgetting a pen or text book. Interestingly, when it happened to mine it never happened again. It did what it required, so I'm happy with that.

The school also provides strong pastoral care, so I feel it has a good balance and is firm but fair.

There's also a strong correlation between absence and exam outcomes. Hence the focus on attendance.

What amazes me, are some parents who thing attendance levels that would not be acceptable in the workplace are ok for children at school. (Usual caveat that children with medical conditions are except from that statement).