To think the social contract has completely broken down?

[KenAdams]

It seems as though everything if affected, from parking in disabled spaces when you don't need them to talking loudly in train quiet carriages to not tolerating people that are different or have different views to you or caring if they are drowned or tortured.

I'm not sure if it was COVID that ramped up the every man for himself mentality but everywhere just seems like a cesspit at the moment.

Of course it could just be the places I frequent but I travel a lot and I don't even think its a UK thing, it seems to be everywhere.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

That's awful. I'm so glad society has moved on from those times.

As for your rather Dickensian story about the old man coming up to your FIL and saying "Thank you, kind sir, for beating me as a child, it was the making of me" - do you really think every single person your FIL caned would feel the same?

Or is one saved soul enough to balance out all the other hurt, fearful children?

Yes they can do, but on the flip side lots don’t. Trying to get people to formally list an issue with the police is a huge hurdle. Some months back our neighbour was seen speeding through our place and I received a text, being off site, to be aware this fellow was walking around our Home.

I asked the neighbour to call the police but they didn’t…

So tired of that being taken out of context! I think ‘duty’ is a dirty word now, the same as ‘responsibility’.

Who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business …

Seems like a statement of fact to me. Where’s the lie, as they say.

I get depressed when people on here pour scorn on those who take pride in, and put in extra effort at their job. I’ve seen it many times!

Their critics’ view is that they are saps, mugs, silly sheep and forelock-tugging peasants to be so conscientious for a modest wage.

i think this attitude shows the real problem with society - if you’re not utterly self-interested, you’re a fool. I’ve always done every hob to the best of my ability- it’s part of my identity to have high standards.

I’m sorry to come over all Captain Mainwaring, but how the hell would we have beaten Hitler with that kind of lazy, selfish, sneering mindset?

I would interpret that (haven’t seen the whole para before) as meaning we all need to take personal responsibility and not lie back and expect others (or the abstract concept‘society’) to do things for us. Society IS an abstract concept and is made up of millions of individual acts/decisions/responsibilities.

I think it’s common sense. Why is it so controversial? The short quote has always been taken out of context and used to push a particular agenda, hasn’t it?

Yes I think so

Yes it can go too far.

sometimes people need to step up a bit

Totally agree.

Giving up a table during a busy time is common decency.

Doing the best you can is something to be proud of.

People stop caring, and getting slobby as the attitude is why bother, but where's the pride?
I bother for myself and for community otherwise we'd all be walking around Tesco in our pj's.

You have people encouraging others to sign off sick, lie to the DWP, cheat whatever system they can, then they wonder why society is how it is.

I completely agree with you. It’s just manifestly true. Common sense, as you say.

Yes my point being that PPs are saying this is a new things with noise on train. It really isnt

Is anyone seeing my posts? I've just mentioned about this and others quite pertinent to this thread?
(edited for clarity)

I was reading a thread a while ago about birthday parties and some parents CF behaviour and lack of social etiquette, and what came across even more than those that couldn’t give a damn about anyone else, was actually those that didn’t know what the social etiquette was.

Maybe a lot of this behaviour has come from us not actually knowing how to behave never mind teaching our kids. Things like cultural diversity, class mobility etc all good things but obviously we’re now mixing more than ever.

In Scotland teachers used a ‘tawse’, a leather strap they used on children’s palms. I had one teacher for three years in primary school, who belted me fairly regularly. No teacher before or after her ever punished me, I wasn’t a bad child. She was a nasty woman whose objective seemed to be humiliation, she destroyed what self confidence I had for years.

It didn’t make me anti authority, it made me anti abuse of authority.

I think we can really underestimate the amount of “unpaid” labour/disregard to enable society to function as it did. From women putting up with terrible men and minorities putting up with casual racism. For example now we have the incel and red pill movements and many men who reject any social niceties towards women. If they are not guaranteed a woman they have no intentions of following societal norms. I suppose people in general feel this about jobs/homes too - what is the point without these things being reasonable to obtain?

My parents (black) would not have told you they were treated with kindness and respect even in work environments or with their neighbours even 20 years ago. There was an expectation not to rock the boat, to accept being treated as inferiors.

All this is to say that people question the point of doing things and we don’t have a great response for them as a culture now that most people are not religious or believe in their “betters” or even that they have someone to feel superior too in the social hierarchy.

I don’t know if I’m expressing it well but I think we need a rational kindness that isn’t as authoritative as the previous ways used to make people behave respectfully.

@DBSFstupid

sorry to hear about your struggles and I agree it is hard to get the help needed but I think in your post you thought there was an overuse of the term and it can be used as an excuse in some cases

Haven't RTFT, but I don't quite view "The Social Contract" in the same way the OP does.

I've always taken it to mean that we as a society have given up certain individual rights to the state, on the understanding that the state will act for society.

So we can't just go around dishing out justice - we relinquish that to the state.

Critically, we give up a lot of our freedoms in exchange for security the state provides. That's why we can't pack a gun for self defence - we rely on the state to protect us.

The real question, is are we getting anything in exchange for those removed freedoms ?

If enough people feel the answer is "No" then yes: the social contract is broken.

I don't feel like i have given up any freedoms and i certainly don't want to pack a gun

I think covid is ramping that up - there’s a fair bit of research showing brain changes after infection(s) - one of which is the part of the brain responsible for empathy. Nearly everyone has caught covid, many of those have been reinfected at least once. A percentage of those infected, will have impacts on their brain as a result. The sheer volume of infections and reinfections is going to have an increasing impact at a societal level. I don’t think covid is the only factor in this societal change - people are being asked to be ever more resilient to compensate for the lack of that in systems and structures. Some are being asked to go beyond what they know is right (using covid as an example again, a care worker may have to choose between their job and infecting someone vulnerable they care for - how do you think that makes some of them feel)? A proportion of people try to push back against that, another proportion think ‘fuck it’. The way disabled people and refugees are spoken about in the press is another example of a deliberate push against empathy. The way attendance is always blamed on parents/kids in the press, instead of thinking why is there no resilience in a curriculum to allow a six year old time off when ill? Why are we blaming children and teachers for their increased absence when they are getting ill from things they pick up in school?

Also, many people are sheep e.g. - I will take my kid to a softplay even though they vomited this morning as someone else might do it anyway / I will play my music on transport as others have done it before / I will park in a blue badge space without one as the person with the badge is probably faking it / I will impede this patient’s chance of recovery as my colleague is also ill.

Thanks very much @suburburban
(for the reply and saving me raising a query!)

It's quite interesting seeing the word pride being used on this thread. When watching the current and prolific crop of reality shows like Masterchef and Great British Bake Off there are very few people, even those who have been eliminated first, who don't tell us how proud they are of themselves.

I am not sure that being the first boot is really anything to be proud of.

I think it’s an example of immature black/white thinking. Quite properly, we’ve rejected the idea that we should be shamed by failure. Pride is simply the opposite of shame. Speaking for myself, I think we express both shame and pride far too often. Why not just do our best and be satisfied with that?

I think we need reminding of how much we do actually get.

Again, from MN alone, you see posts from people declaring their intention to flounce off to another country (always some Utopian fantasy with little basis in reality, but hey). We’ve been brainwashed to be super- critical of how the country is run by governments of all types and we forget that we have healthcare, education and many other services free at the point of use. We also should be grateful (OMG - I’ll get slaughtered for that - no one is supposed to feel GRATEFUL for anything any more - it’s our right!) that when we go to a police station, they don’t laugh in our faces and demand a bribe before the will help.

I think many people have little understanding of how some countries operate and have no idea of how lucky even the least fortunate in our society are compared to elsewhere.

Grateful but not complacent. I think people know how tenuous some of our "rights" are. I always think about the US and the situation with abortion rights in certain states where people thought it would never happen. And people can move if they do not like somewhere even if they appreciate what they have.

Are they proud of being booted off or of trying in the first place? Of getting in at all, probably when so many people would have liked the opportunity? I think it is healthy to be grateful for the chances you get and for your effort even if you have failed. We can't all win and not all the time.