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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the social contract has completely broken down?

319 replies

KenAdams · 19/09/2025 15:27

It seems as though everything if affected, from parking in disabled spaces when you don't need them to talking loudly in train quiet carriages to not tolerating people that are different or have different views to you or caring if they are drowned or tortured.

I'm not sure if it was COVID that ramped up the every man for himself mentality but everywhere just seems like a cesspit at the moment.

Of course it could just be the places I frequent but I travel a lot and I don't even think its a UK thing, it seems to be everywhere.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

OP posts:
Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 17:27

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 15:54

No grandchildren…and it’s not looking too likely at present. But I have friends with very young grandchildren..

And how old are your children? Do you see the lack of respect for authority in them and in their friends and peers?

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 17:29

SerendipityJane · 21/09/2025 16:05

They’ve ceded their ability or right to defend themselves and their property to the state on the understanding that the state will adequately fund and maintain a police force capable and willing of preventing crime and violence.

Arguably the cornerstone of civilisation.

Once it has gone, it's basically anarchy blended with the usually-violent arrival and usually-violent departure of strong men (very occasionally women) to preside over the general misery.

What countries have you seen this play out in?

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 18:16

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 17:27

And how old are your children? Do you see the lack of respect for authority in them and in their friends and peers?

Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense. They’re interested in politics and open-minded. My daughter is - horrible old-fashioned word, but ‘alternative’. She lives a very Greta Thunberg life (forgive the cliches - I’m try to be concise). My son is a barrister, so a very different sphere.

Both went to very traditional state schools and although they are very liberal, open- minded and challenge accepted ideas, they are and always have been conformist in terms of behaviour, both at school and now. They have got on well with adults - particularly their teachers and lecturers, and always respectful and hard-working.

My point is: you can question and challenge societal norms, but it doesn’t have to mean unruly, disrespectful or antisocial behaviour.

SerendipityJane · 21/09/2025 18:22

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 17:29

What countries have you seen this play out in?

E2A: Bad quoting, soz to all

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 18:27

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 18:16

Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense. They’re interested in politics and open-minded. My daughter is - horrible old-fashioned word, but ‘alternative’. She lives a very Greta Thunberg life (forgive the cliches - I’m try to be concise). My son is a barrister, so a very different sphere.

Both went to very traditional state schools and although they are very liberal, open- minded and challenge accepted ideas, they are and always have been conformist in terms of behaviour, both at school and now. They have got on well with adults - particularly their teachers and lecturers, and always respectful and hard-working.

My point is: you can question and challenge societal norms, but it doesn’t have to mean unruly, disrespectful or antisocial behaviour.

Sorry? I asked whether you saw an absence of respect for authority in your children and their friends and peer.

and your response is Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense.

what on earth do you mean?

TryingAgainAgainAgain · 21/09/2025 18:31

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 18:27

Sorry? I asked whether you saw an absence of respect for authority in your children and their friends and peer.

and your response is Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense.

what on earth do you mean?

They wouldn’t actually throw a tin of beans at a Monet, but they defend and retain the right to do so.

TranceNation · 21/09/2025 18:32

Yep, my opinion is a lot of people have come out of lockdown absolutely bonkers, delicate, and with anger issues.

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 18:37

TryingAgainAgainAgain · 21/09/2025 18:31

They wouldn’t actually throw a tin of beans at a Monet, but they defend and retain the right to do so.

😆

Very likely also insufferable

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 19:56

Fruitlips · 21/09/2025 18:27

Sorry? I asked whether you saw an absence of respect for authority in your children and their friends and peer.

and your response is Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense.

what on earth do you mean?

We have lots of discussions and arguments about politics and philosophy. They will both be passionate about their beliefs, which may be at odds with mine, or with the mainstream. I’d say my daughter particularly is quite radical, politically and environmentally. Neither of them are complacent about the status quo.

So not exactly Young Conservatives. But in terms of their social behaviour they’re polite, friendly, respectful of everyone they meet and have excellent manners.

I’m sorry if I’m not explaining very well, but I’ve been posting on the same theme for ages which is: questioning authority is an intellectual thing and doesn’t need to manifest as nasty, disrespectful, anti-social, ill-mannered behaviour.

This was a bugbear when I was teaching long ago and the excuse given for rudeness or lack of respect by students would be ‘we’re/they’re questioning authority’ (by them, or some adults). My point (again) is that you have to do that the rigorous way - through reasoned argument- not by being cheeky or just refusing to comply with a fair request.

I honestly can’t explain it further!

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 19:59

TryingAgainAgainAgain · 21/09/2025 18:31

They wouldn’t actually throw a tin of beans at a Monet, but they defend and retain the right to do so.

I think one of them would! They wouldn’t do it iBut they wouldn’t necessarily condemn the motivation.

Although my daughter hated Extinction Rebellion and wondered if it was actually a movement set up to discredit the environmental lobby.

MuffinTopHat · 21/09/2025 20:01

Fruitlips · 19/09/2025 15:42

Are you happy in your personal life OP?

I’m sure she’s as happy as most people and this observation isn’t something intrinsically wrong with her.

ProudJackeen · 21/09/2025 23:01

People harp on about their rights. If you have rights you also have responsibilities, all too often forgotten.

LeftieRightsHoarder · 21/09/2025 23:51

KimberleyClark · 19/09/2025 15:41

It started with Margaret “no such thing as society” Thatcher.

OMG, so horribly true. The damage Thatcher caused, not only selling off state assets and squandering the money, but even worse making antisocial greed and selfishness seem normal.

Rhaenys · 22/09/2025 00:12

People are definitely getting ruder and more inconsiderate. It’s one of the long lasting consequences of covid. I live in an AONB not far from a national park, and I’ve noticed the behaviour of visitors has drastically declined. They’re very quick to say that the countryside
is for everyone whilst simultaneously behaving like it’s only for them.

Netcurtainnelly · 22/09/2025 01:45

Shame and embarrassment has gone.
People talk loudly on the bus on their phone. In the past you didn't want people to hear what your saying.

If a teacher or the school complained about you, your parents would back them and you'd be in trouble.
Now a parent is more likely to complain on here, or go into school complaining. They may even become aggressive.

Social media is a cesspit.
Mobile phones haven't helped.
General decline in standards and manners.
Less courtesy on the roads too.

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 06:08

MuffinTopHat · 21/09/2025 20:01

I’m sure she’s as happy as most people and this observation isn’t something intrinsically wrong with her.

I disagree

if you have this kind of bleak view on society (“social contract has completely broken down”), then I honestly can’t see how you can be particularly happy in your personal life.

I look at my teens and their friends and see such optimism and joy and just general all round positivity that I couldn’t possibly think this. These kids are polite and thriving and respectful. Sure, they have their moments. Just like we did.

I use public transport a lot and, sure there’s inconsiderate people, but the vast majority are perfectly considerate and go about their business not wishing to cause other discomfort or disrespect.

I could go on.

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 06:09

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 19:56

We have lots of discussions and arguments about politics and philosophy. They will both be passionate about their beliefs, which may be at odds with mine, or with the mainstream. I’d say my daughter particularly is quite radical, politically and environmentally. Neither of them are complacent about the status quo.

So not exactly Young Conservatives. But in terms of their social behaviour they’re polite, friendly, respectful of everyone they meet and have excellent manners.

I’m sorry if I’m not explaining very well, but I’ve been posting on the same theme for ages which is: questioning authority is an intellectual thing and doesn’t need to manifest as nasty, disrespectful, anti-social, ill-mannered behaviour.

This was a bugbear when I was teaching long ago and the excuse given for rudeness or lack of respect by students would be ‘we’re/they’re questioning authority’ (by them, or some adults). My point (again) is that you have to do that the rigorous way - through reasoned argument- not by being cheeky or just refusing to comply with a fair request.

I honestly can’t explain it further!

I agree, I honestly don’t think you could explain it further!

TicklishLilacPlayer · 22/09/2025 08:05

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 06:09

I agree, I honestly don’t think you could explain it further!

If you’re so snide to strangers, I honestly don’t see how you can be particularly happy in your private life. Etc.

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:18

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 06:08

I disagree

if you have this kind of bleak view on society (“social contract has completely broken down”), then I honestly can’t see how you can be particularly happy in your personal life.

I look at my teens and their friends and see such optimism and joy and just general all round positivity that I couldn’t possibly think this. These kids are polite and thriving and respectful. Sure, they have their moments. Just like we did.

I use public transport a lot and, sure there’s inconsiderate people, but the vast majority are perfectly considerate and go about their business not wishing to cause other discomfort or disrespect.

I could go on.

That’s great. Genuinely, of course I’m glad that your teenagers are happy and that things around you appear optimistic. But it’s naive to think we’re not living through troubled times and that there are some signs that society has changed, particularly since the pandemic.

Suggesting that feeling this way is something wrong with OP rather than an understandable reaction to difficult times, or an intelligent need to discuss something she’s seeing around her, comes across as sly, and a little naive.

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 08:20

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:18

That’s great. Genuinely, of course I’m glad that your teenagers are happy and that things around you appear optimistic. But it’s naive to think we’re not living through troubled times and that there are some signs that society has changed, particularly since the pandemic.

Suggesting that feeling this way is something wrong with OP rather than an understandable reaction to difficult times, or an intelligent need to discuss something she’s seeing around her, comes across as sly, and a little naive.

Absolutely some troubling signs that things are deteriorating

but this Op has said that the social contract at has completely broken which I find massively hyperbolic

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:26

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 08:20

Absolutely some troubling signs that things are deteriorating

but this Op has said that the social contract at has completely broken which I find massively hyperbolic

You know, I don’t usually remember poster’s names but I have come to recognise yours. You’re often quite argumentative and pedantic on threads, even when people are giving you the benefit of the doubt and are trying to engage in good faith.

You might not agree with the prior poster but they really took some time to answer your question and interact with you respectfully but you didn’t seem to give them this same respect. You might want to reflect a little on that, given you’re making sly suggestions on people’s lives and mental health.

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 08:31

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:26

You know, I don’t usually remember poster’s names but I have come to recognise yours. You’re often quite argumentative and pedantic on threads, even when people are giving you the benefit of the doubt and are trying to engage in good faith.

You might not agree with the prior poster but they really took some time to answer your question and interact with you respectfully but you didn’t seem to give them this same respect. You might want to reflect a little on that, given you’re making sly suggestions on people’s lives and mental health.

Edited

Did you read my post? 😕

I said that I do agree that there are troubling signs!!

but I do not think the “social contract has completely broken down”

not even close

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:33

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 08:31

Did you read my post? 😕

I said that I do agree that there are troubling signs!!

but I do not think the “social contract has completely broken down”

not even close

I think perhaps you didn’t read mine, which mentioned how you tend to have quite fixed and repetitive replies to considered responses. That’s ok, I’ve said my piece and from experience don’t expect we’ll move on further from this.

Fruitlips · 22/09/2025 08:40

MuffinTopHat · 22/09/2025 08:33

I think perhaps you didn’t read mine, which mentioned how you tend to have quite fixed and repetitive replies to considered responses. That’s ok, I’ve said my piece and from experience don’t expect we’ll move on further from this.

Fair enough
Different strokes for different folks

WaryCrow · 22/09/2025 08:49

ThisOldThang · 20/09/2025 17:33

@CoffeeCantata

Your argument entirely exists within the system and you demand that people engage with the system.

My point is that the system itself operates purely based upon inertia and people not questioning it. For example, what authority do the laws, police and justice system actually have? They exist and they enforce the status quo, but what if you don't accept their authority? How do you opt out?

What about the concept of taxation? How do you opt out? Why are you bound by it? When did we ever agree to having a percentage of our output confiscated by force?

When you actually stop to think about it, the system can't really be defended - but the alternative is anarchy, so what can you do? 🤷‍♀️

I actually think more people need to question these concepts, as you cannot engage within a system that cannot be questioned. Systems that cannot be questioned are authoritarian and driven by force and power. To have a democracy ruled by law you need consent and that requires understanding and, therefore questioned. A society that cannot supply answers is in very shaky territory. The post war social contract enabled questions to be asked and answered within its vibrant literary worlds of alternative, often dystopian, worlds and science fiction, many of them classics.

The beginnings of an answer lie in the realisation and knowledge that questions of taxation and how much power law should have when is exactly what politicians debate and is exactly what choosing political parties is about!

When Tories go on about small state and low regulation, they’re talking about removing all obligations of the state to individuals and, as you mentioned, removing the power to enforce laws and taxation. The problem is that if you take taxation away the state has no money and therefore no power. It effectively ceases to exist. What they don’t tell you is that it means no healthcare, no education, and more crucially no law enforcement, no checks on the power of those with power - individuals or companies - to do precisely what they want, ruining people’s lives and the land and ecosystems in the process.

The far left, as it’s called, is the argument that everything should be surrendered to the power of the state and the state should govern everything for its own benefit: as it has a longer life than any individual member, so members are best served by working for its survival. The obvious problem is that it involves throwing individuals lives and rights under a bus. It does not have much of a presence here now.

We navigate, or should, between the two extremes. It’s easy to see how they can come to resemble each other, taking the lives of poorer individuals for naught. Most understand the second extreme very well, but less so the first. We’ve seen communism in states more recently than imperialism. But as the first extreme has grown in power its beneficiaries have increasingly - imho - gained powers to cloudy waters and wreck the educated and informed debates needed to best balance different factions and priorities.

That is where we are in my opinion, and as SerendipityJane points out, you need consent to be able to operate in the large scale societies we have. As people see - and they do - that societies increasingly are not representative, not balanced, not in fact reasoned at all and are merely about power, they have no reason to meekly engage with their own impoverishment.

The sheer numbers in our society are a major factor by themselves.