To think the social contract has completely broken down?

[KenAdams]

It seems as though everything if affected, from parking in disabled spaces when you don't need them to talking loudly in train quiet carriages to not tolerating people that are different or have different views to you or caring if they are drowned or tortured.

I'm not sure if it was COVID that ramped up the every man for himself mentality but everywhere just seems like a cesspit at the moment.

Of course it could just be the places I frequent but I travel a lot and I don't even think its a UK thing, it seems to be everywhere.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

I really have no idea but I just get fed up of everybody saying the same thing. I suppose I think that doing a good deed or achieving something special or very difficult is worthy of pride.

I see. I wonder though if it is just a misuse of language like we often overuse the word "love" too. It doesn't bother me. I think we should be grateful several times a day and most of these people are not really "proud" - though it would not be surprising if more confident people are more likely to be on TV in the first place. If you are shy, retiring and modest you probably won't be there in the first place.

When I was blathering about the loss of respect for authority I didn’t mean caning or belting people. I mean the respect which used to be a given for teachers and other people in the community which most children and adults would have had a few decades ago. Of course you get the odd bad apple but on the whole these people deserve respect and frankly, society can’t operate without it. But there are so many instances now of parents supporting their children against teachers’ sanctions because ‘ you can’t tell my kid what to do!’. Well, on that basis, schools just cannot function. How do such parents imagine the system can work?

A very militant acquaintance of mine taught his children that they shouldn’t respect anyone until that person has earned it. I fundamentally disagree with him. I think you show people respect as a default setting until they give you a read not to.

We encounter many people day-to-day just for a brief moment. How the hell are all these people supposed to earn our respect? His belligerent and mean-spirited attitude would make for a horrible society.

A very militant acquaintance of mine taught his children that they shouldn’t respect anyone until that person has earned it.

How long ago was this?

Yep, people don’t care about others in the same way anymore. Manners are a thing of the past.

Oh, give over.

"Bad intentions always come before good ones".

Anyway, I have money, why should I care about what others want or feel? Society is burdensome, to say the least.
Just another take on stuff. 😊

I agree. Why do they even need to ask people these daft questions on TV programmes? I guess these competitors feel pressured to say something or other.

I’ve endured many a dreary training course over my career and on one, the leaders asked us all to state something in our lives we were proud of. Yawn.

Anyway, partly because of my Methodist upbringing and partly because I’d never thought of my life in 5hat way, I settled on saying I was proud of my children ( they have both overcome health issues, one was bullied badly etc). I got told off and asked to find something about myself instead. Er…I dunno…what do you want me to say? It was all highly manipulative and contrived, and I guess that’s what the TV people do.

Honestly!

About 10-15 years ago. The kids are now young adults and bolshy little buggers!😀

So when you say “now” when are you saying this deterioration began?

He’s exactly the same now - and he has grandchildren, but I heard him make that statement…probably around 2012 ish.

He’s always prided himself on being anti-establishment and radical. He worked as a TA at one time and he showed me some of the Christmas cards the children had made for him (KS1 children) and many of them mentioned Jeremy Corbyn! I thought that was priceless.

If you read my post upthread ( that’s not meant to sound rude - I just mean I won’t bore everyone with repetition) I think the rot can be traced to more permissive, anti-authoritarian ideas pervasive in the 70s which had their origins in post-modern theorists like Barthes and Foucault.

All very interesting stuff in academic articles but when translated to reality, very damaging to the bonds and structures which hold society together.

Yes the rot set in

I am talking about you and other talking about how “now” is so depressing whereas the example you gave was 10-15 years ago. So I was wondering when period of time “now” covers?

So he would have been behaving like an inconsiderate anti authority child, back in the 60s? 50s?

I am friends with his sibling (they don’t get on - he’s been horrible and bullying) and he was a very difficult teenager, apparently. After a warning about drugs from their mother, my friend was put off for life but this guy’s reaction was to go out as soon as possible and get into drugs. This would have been mid 70s.

He's very bright - that’s undeniable- but has never had a career as such. He's occasionally done p/T jobs but would never accept any kind of authority whatsoever.

I think we need reminding of how much we do actually get.

On the one hand, yes.

On the other hand, just because there are plenty of shit places in the world, doesn't make it OK for Britain to folliow.

People who follow history (so that's about fuck all of the population) will be keenly aware that it took centuries - millennia - for Britain to become what it is. And how that unique development led to us being here able to feel that 50% of the world is sub optimal, with very good cause.

But our entire concept of society is based around the idea that "the King" in whatever shape or form you wish to cast them will protect their subjects. In return their subjects obey the law.

Now we may be fairly well protected against external threats. No one is going to invade us despite the lunatic ravings of a few. However I feel a fuck less protected from the scum that go around my neighbourhood in the wee small hours, trying door handles, stealing cars and being captured in their masked glory on every Ring doorbell in the street. (My DB who lives in Tennessee suggested a few pot shots out the window which is what they'd do in his town).

This is one example of a statement about respect (or lack of it) from someone who would have been a teenager in the 70s, and someone who was very much influenced by the contemporary culture.

I’ve worked in education all my career, which is a very politicised sector, and I have encountered many others with similar attitudes, but this man’s comment has stuck with me and seems to explain where a lot of what is going on in society today comes from.

So this proves my point

his teachers back in the 70s would have likely been doing similar hand wringing as in this thread about “now”

I take it as being proud to put yourself out there and not be afraid of failure.
Proud for trying, not staying in the status quo etc.

Having someone give up their job and throw everything in trying to turn a hobby into a job is to be applauded and hopefully can inspire someone to do similar.
Of course, different from arrogance or entitlement, which some come across as.

Working with kids, it's sad to see most boys look up to footballers, mostly for the adoration and money than actual talent.
People like Andrew Tate, Logan & Jake Paul, KSI etc come up a lot too for the same reasons.

Don't get me started on how kids speak to their grandparents and allowed to by their parents.

I think increasing numbers of people feel that way.

They’ve ceded their ability or right to defend themselves and their property to the state on the understanding that the state will adequately fund and maintain a police force capable and willing of preventing crime and violence. Now they find themselves helpless and defenceless in an increasingly aggressive and violent society. So much crime goes unreported and therefore unpunished. If a vehicle is stolen the police will give you a crime reference number for insurance purposes. We’re in a real mess and it’s only getting worse.

I meet polite people on a daily basis, but then i'm v polite

I’m sure there’ve always been youngsters who find it difficult to accept authority (don’t mean Nazi jackboots- merely being asked to hand in homework or not talk when the teacher’s talking etc).

But the prevailing attitude until then would have been that it wasn’t acceptable behaviour. The difference in the 70s, and what I mean by a permissive attitude, is that there was a shift in this view that say, students should comply with requests and citizens in the wider society should obey its rules.

So while difficult students might always have existed, the attitude to them and sanctions against them softened and the educational establishment began to shift the blame for behaviour on to teachers - if the kids are playing up, it’s because you’re boring them!

@CoffeeCantata out of interest, do you have children? I know you have extensive history in teaching

and if you have adult children, any grandchildren?

No grandchildren…and it’s not looking too likely at present. But I have friends with very young grandchildren..

They’ve ceded their ability or right to defend themselves and their property to the state on the understanding that the state will adequately fund and maintain a police force capable and willing of preventing crime and violence.

Arguably the cornerstone of civilisation.

Once it has gone, it's basically anarchy blended with the usually-violent arrival and usually-violent departure of strong men (very occasionally women) to preside over the general misery.