Page 13 | To think the social contract has completely broken down?

KenAdams · 2025-09-19T14:27:34+00:00

It seems as though everything if affected, from parking in disabled spaces when you don't need them to talking loudly in train quiet carriages to not tolerating people that are different or have different views to you or caring if they are drowned or tortured. I'm not sure if it was COVID that ramped up the every man for himself mentality but everywhere just seems like a cesspit at the moment. Of course it could just be the places I frequent but I travel a lot and I don't even think its a UK thing, it seems to be everywhere. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

SerendipityJane · 23/09/2025 09:59

Seymour5 · 21/09/2025 10:31

So tired of that being taken out of context! I think ‘duty’ is a dirty word now, the same as ‘responsibility’.

Who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business …

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Fine words.

Thatcher and co then went on to make sure they were true (and so they could be seen as profits prophets ) by breaking almost every single aid that people had to build society with. A mission her descendants have taken to extremes - awarding themselves increasingly higher salaries as the number of hungry and homeless increases in lockstep.

The less equal a society is, the harder it is to maintain any concept of a social contract and you fall back to feudalism.

Who here can afford to change jobs at will ?

CoffeeCantata · 23/09/2025 12:26

SerendipityJane · 23/09/2025 09:59

Fine words.

Thatcher and co then went on to make sure they were true (and so they could be seen as profits prophets ) by breaking almost every single aid that people had to build society with. A mission her descendants have taken to extremes - awarding themselves increasingly higher salaries as the number of hungry and homeless increases in lockstep.

The less equal a society is, the harder it is to maintain any concept of a social contract and you fall back to feudalism.

Who here can afford to change jobs at will ?

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I can’t fault what she says in that quote though. It’s always been wilfully misinterpreted.

There IS no such things as society, is there ? It’s an abstract notion made up of all of us individuals and it only works when people take personal responsibility for themselves, and others - which is implied at the end.

CoffeeCantata · 23/09/2025 12:38

Another term that’s bandied about is ‘an equal society’. I have no clue what that means. If it means a fair society, then I’m all for it. If it means people who make an effort and take responsibility and contribute to the community doing well and being rewarded, then great. If it means everyone is equally rewarded however much of a selfish, antisocial toe-rag they are, then no - that’s not fair.

ThisOldThang · 23/09/2025 13:54

CoffeeCantata · 22/09/2025 15:22

I think our society is too obsessed with trivialities - rather like the Roman tactic of giving the populace plenty of “bread and circuses “. The huge proliferation of entertainment media, social media and virtual reality takes up the attention of too many people.

I think generally people are less well-informed than 30-odd years ago - when there were just a few TV channels and more of us watched the news, David Attenborough and series and documentaries about history and science. There wasn’t the option of just following your own narrow interest or echo-chamber via an algorithm, or sitting in front of endless Netflix dramas.

I think it has had an effect on our political/constitutional knowledge and our democratic participation. The link between our lives and our social responsibilities has been damaged. A lot of people are content to take no interest or part in the democratic process.

I've often wondered if a civilised society can only exist when it's collectively brainwashed. When we only had four TV channels and the news only covered 'acceptable' stories/angles/viewpoints - with 'unacceptable' views made clear to the populace. Anybody that railed against the BBC worldview was a pub bore at best and had no way of meeting like minded people.

The internet has lifted the scales from people's eyes and allowed people to organise and defeat the elites - e.g. Brexit.

But can society actually function without the brainwashing?

EmeraldRoulette · 23/09/2025 16:14

@ThisOldThang "But can society actually function without the brainwashing"

that's an interesting question. However, I would say there was a lot of variety of thought before the Internet. It's not just variety of thought and view that's causing issues. Not by a long stretch.

I would say that "unacceptable" views are being made clear to the population now. To some extent you're seeing a backlash politically.

But what this has to do with people just being polite and stuff I don't know. I walk around filled with rage a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean I can't be polite in a shop on the bus. They are not the cause of my rage. In fact, I think probably a lot of them are angry about the same things as I am.

🎤 the government wants everybody fighting with their neighbours
Cause if we get along, they know we'll probably go against them🎤

Bonus points to anyone who doesn't have to Google! 😂

SerendipityJane · 23/09/2025 16:29

The internet has lifted the scales from people's eyes and allowed people to organise and defeat the elites - e.g. Brexit.

How did that benefit the non-elites, pray tell ?

EasternStandard · 23/09/2025 20:04

People will push back if they feel alienated by the gov. In small ways often as we’re not a revolutionary bunch.

MuffinTopHat · 23/09/2025 20:07

ThisOldThang · 23/09/2025 13:54

I've often wondered if a civilised society can only exist when it's collectively brainwashed. When we only had four TV channels and the news only covered 'acceptable' stories/angles/viewpoints - with 'unacceptable' views made clear to the populace. Anybody that railed against the BBC worldview was a pub bore at best and had no way of meeting like minded people.

The internet has lifted the scales from people's eyes and allowed people to organise and defeat the elites - e.g. Brexit.

But can society actually function without the brainwashing?

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The internet has lifted the scales from people's eyes and allowed people to organise and defeat the elites - e.g. Brexit.

or conversely:

Allowed racist and intolerant people to find other racist and intolerant people.

Allowed billionaires access to swathes of society they previously couldn’t reach, and give them the ability to brainwash those people into thinking that the billionaires are on their side. The turkeys are voting for Christmas. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t horrifying.

tommyhoundmum · 23/09/2025 20:30

WaryCrow · 23/09/2025 07:58

Closed minds from that generation? That’s a laugh. How open were yours when buy to let started and all we heard then were the endless accusations of selfishness because we wanted to be able to buy our own places just as you did rather than pay for your pensions? When was the last time you were living in damp mouldy rentals and had to throw clothes that had gone irreparably mouldy? The long retirements of that generation are a fact, it’s what most U.K. welfare money is spent on and why we can’t afford decent education and decent teachers for our kids. Speaking of which are you really going to continue advocating for free training for prisoners while women who work hard through school and then pay to work for basic ‘training’ in hospitals are then chucked off with ‘no jobs available’ because we can’t afford nurses any more?

It’s one self justification after another with your generation. I’ve heard them all for 30 years. You will go down in history as the most selfish ever - not really surprising as a kickback after the war generation, but still destroying all of civilization is one hell of a grave marker for you all.

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I am of the generation just after the war. I have lived in poor accomodation where there was vermin and damp. I lived on cream crackers and cheese for years to scrape together the deposit on my own moving in with just a camp bed and a kettle. I have no interest in by to let and consider it reprehensible. I worked from age 14 part time and full time from 16, still doing a part time job now at nearly 80.

Yes, I do believe prisoners should be taught a trade. Why ever not?

Your anger and bitterness are misdirected and are corrosive.

venus7 · 23/09/2025 21:13

Fruitlips · 19/09/2025 15:42

Are you happy in your personal life OP?

It's possible to be happy, and also concerned about wider society.

Original poster

KenAdams · 25/09/2025 13:51

Sorry for going AWOL, but I just wanted to say thank you for all the thoughts you've shared thus far without the thread descending into chaos 🤣. I've got lots of rabbit holes to go and read about now!

I haven't read the last two pages of the thread so someone may have already mentioned it, but today's BBC headline about the teens vandalising shops is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of as an example.

OP posts:

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 26/09/2025 10:45

CoffeeCantata · 21/09/2025 13:26

I think we need reminding of how much we do actually get.

Again, from MN alone, you see posts from people declaring their intention to flounce off to another country (always some Utopian fantasy with little basis in reality, but hey). We’ve been brainwashed to be super- critical of how the country is run by governments of all types and we forget that we have healthcare, education and many other services free at the point of use. We also should be grateful (OMG - I’ll get slaughtered for that - no one is supposed to feel GRATEFUL for anything any more - it’s our right!) that when we go to a police station, they don’t laugh in our faces and demand a bribe before the will help.

I think many people have little understanding of how some countries operate and have no idea of how lucky even the least fortunate in our society are compared to elsewhere.

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Goodness me you live a very, very sheltered live. very.

I live in the NL and frankly it's not perfect but the level of societal functioning is far higher. I've actually fallen very badly foul of one an unknown flaw in the system, but even so the way I was handled was light years ahead of how I was handled in the UK in a situation not too far different. There was compassion, and not the 'shrug, doesn't affect me' attitude in the UK. The situation isn't resolved and won't be for many years but the way that people approach it is far better.

Frankly the health system here -works-. When I had to accompany someone to A&E in the UK, the place was shockingly overcrowded, dirty and unpleasant and we waited 8 hours. That just does not happen here.

So maybe in your rather smug world you think that other places aren't better, but you've not travelled within Northern Europe much have you? There are places that are worse, much, but there really are places that are better, too.

Actually, regarding the police I don't think we should be grateful they don't demand a bribe. We pay taxes for the police - why the hell should we be grateful if they do the job that they're supposed to, that we pay for?

And if you seriously think that that life can't be grim, horrible and hopeless and people don't die for lack of health treatment in the UK then I suggest you get off your priviliged backside and actually live in some of the worse areas. Then you can open your mouth and speak with experience and authority, not the naive crap you're coming out with now.

Edited: Some of the people who die for lack of health treatment have paid taxes all their lives. They are entitled to dignity and treatment because they damn well upheld their end of the social contract.

tommyhoundmum · 26/09/2025 19:14

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 26/09/2025 10:45

Goodness me you live a very, very sheltered live. very.

I live in the NL and frankly it's not perfect but the level of societal functioning is far higher. I've actually fallen very badly foul of one an unknown flaw in the system, but even so the way I was handled was light years ahead of how I was handled in the UK in a situation not too far different. There was compassion, and not the 'shrug, doesn't affect me' attitude in the UK. The situation isn't resolved and won't be for many years but the way that people approach it is far better.

Frankly the health system here -works-. When I had to accompany someone to A&E in the UK, the place was shockingly overcrowded, dirty and unpleasant and we waited 8 hours. That just does not happen here.

So maybe in your rather smug world you think that other places aren't better, but you've not travelled within Northern Europe much have you? There are places that are worse, much, but there really are places that are better, too.

Actually, regarding the police I don't think we should be grateful they don't demand a bribe. We pay taxes for the police - why the hell should we be grateful if they do the job that they're supposed to, that we pay for?

And if you seriously think that that life can't be grim, horrible and hopeless and people don't die for lack of health treatment in the UK then I suggest you get off your priviliged backside and actually live in some of the worse areas. Then you can open your mouth and speak with experience and authority, not the naive crap you're coming out with now.

Edited: Some of the people who die for lack of health treatment have paid taxes all their lives. They are entitled to dignity and treatment because they damn well upheld their end of the social contract.

Edited

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Please try not to patronise CoffeeCantata who is entitled to her opinion which I share.

CoffeeCantata · 26/09/2025 19:45

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 26/09/2025 10:45

Goodness me you live a very, very sheltered live. very.

I live in the NL and frankly it's not perfect but the level of societal functioning is far higher. I've actually fallen very badly foul of one an unknown flaw in the system, but even so the way I was handled was light years ahead of how I was handled in the UK in a situation not too far different. There was compassion, and not the 'shrug, doesn't affect me' attitude in the UK. The situation isn't resolved and won't be for many years but the way that people approach it is far better.

Frankly the health system here -works-. When I had to accompany someone to A&E in the UK, the place was shockingly overcrowded, dirty and unpleasant and we waited 8 hours. That just does not happen here.

So maybe in your rather smug world you think that other places aren't better, but you've not travelled within Northern Europe much have you? There are places that are worse, much, but there really are places that are better, too.

Actually, regarding the police I don't think we should be grateful they don't demand a bribe. We pay taxes for the police - why the hell should we be grateful if they do the job that they're supposed to, that we pay for?

And if you seriously think that that life can't be grim, horrible and hopeless and people don't die for lack of health treatment in the UK then I suggest you get off your priviliged backside and actually live in some of the worse areas. Then you can open your mouth and speak with experience and authority, not the naive crap you're coming out with now.

Edited: Some of the people who die for lack of health treatment have paid taxes all their lives. They are entitled to dignity and treatment because they damn well upheld their end of the social contract.

Edited

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I have no clue as to how most of your post relates to mine. You seem very angry indeed - please don’t take it out on me!

What makes you think I’m critical of the NL? I’ve heard of reading between the lines but that’s ridiculous. My son worked there for a few years and I have Dutch friends, so wtaf? It’s a country I love.

I don’t know where to start with the rest of your rant -it’s so off the point. Of course we should be grateful that we can largely trust the cops to do their job without bribery. I think you’re the sheltered one if you don’t know that that happens in many countries. Oh hang on - you’re one of the “grateful is a dirty word brigade “.

I never understand why pps have to descend to personal insults in these discussions. It’s a discussion, not a shouting match. Some people don’t know the difference.

Ireolu · 26/09/2025 19:49

BBC news showing a series on antisocial behaviour. Appalling behaviour from teens and adults. Shocking, with little impact from whatever policing is available.

CoffeeCantata · 26/09/2025 19:50

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

Just read your post again. It really is a shocker! Assumptions, insults, misunderstanding, rage - blimey.

To use a MN cliche I don’t usually like: are you OK?

CoffeeCantata · 26/09/2025 20:23

ThisOldThang · 23/09/2025 13:54

I've often wondered if a civilised society can only exist when it's collectively brainwashed. When we only had four TV channels and the news only covered 'acceptable' stories/angles/viewpoints - with 'unacceptable' views made clear to the populace. Anybody that railed against the BBC worldview was a pub bore at best and had no way of meeting like minded people.

The internet has lifted the scales from people's eyes and allowed people to organise and defeat the elites - e.g. Brexit.

But can society actually function without the brainwashing?

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Interesting point. Whatever anyone might think of the mainstream TV news broadcasters (BBC and ITN) I’d rather everyone was informed (brainwashed is a bit harsh!) by them than finding all sorts of unregulated crazy sources online.

Coatsoff42 · 26/09/2025 20:40

I guess it’s a balance between a judgey, authority/elder worshipping, conformist society, and an individualistic, selfish, freedom orientated society.

I wouldn’t say the balance is right in this society. I think people are free to express themselves and live their lives seeking happiness as they see fit, but too many people are alone and discarded and disrespected by others, and no one can criticise anybody in public, it all must be anonymous on the internet.

I think you owe each other in this society respect and thoughtful kindness and safety, and if you have to limit yourself in public a little bit, that’s fine, other people will do the same for you.

CoffeeCantata · 26/09/2025 21:40

Coatsoff42 · 26/09/2025 20:40

I guess it’s a balance between a judgey, authority/elder worshipping, conformist society, and an individualistic, selfish, freedom orientated society.

I wouldn’t say the balance is right in this society. I think people are free to express themselves and live their lives seeking happiness as they see fit, but too many people are alone and discarded and disrespected by others, and no one can criticise anybody in public, it all must be anonymous on the internet.

I think you owe each other in this society respect and thoughtful kindness and safety, and if you have to limit yourself in public a little bit, that’s fine, other people will do the same for you.

100% this.