Not Transphobia - Manphobia

[blueliner]

Spurred on from a conversation today with a friend, I’m really getting tired of people throwing the accusation of transphobia around when it is nothing of the sort.

I really don't understand why stating that I don’t want to share single sex spaces with biological men, no matter how they identify, is transphobic. I am not scared of trans people and welcome trans identifying women into female only spaces. I just don’t want to share any single sex space with the opposite sex, no matter what surgeries they may or may not have had. One in 4 women are sexually assaulted by men in their lifetime. Men, as a group, pose a threat to women, isn’t that just factual.

AIBU to think what people should really be shouting is manphobia and they wouldn’t be wrong. I am scared of being in certain situations, especially in states of undress with unknown males in the room. Isn’t that why we have single sex spaces in the first place.

YABU - It’s transphobia
YANBU - It’s manphobia

I think it becomes transphobic when the argument becomes more focused on how "all" trans women must be sexual deviants and are purely fetishists and only want to access female spaces for nefarious purposes. I think that's when it crosses the line from being an issue related to the behaviour and harm caused by biological males in society and more around scaremongering about trans women specifically.

It's got nothing to do with how 'deviant' a transwoman might be, it's because they are men. It's that simple.

It means I would welcome all females into a female only space however they dress, even if they believe themselves to be male. Why? Because I live in reality and they are female.

Agreed. Except that I find 'phobia' itself a patronising and misogynist word in this context. Despite having been sexually assaulted, I am not in the least bit 'phobic'. I like men, have male friends, have a husband. I am personally not going round in permanent abject terror of males. BUT males are bigger, stronger, more violent and more criminal than females. I'd therefore be a bit silly if I didn't live my life with that in the background of my mind. It's not a phobia; it's just about being a little bit mindful of safety and trusting your instincts.
(And this is also not to denigrate the feelings of any woman who does feel phobia about males. It's just that as a catch-all phrase, I find it belittling of my entirely sensible, not phobic, behaviours)

Yeah, I think your use of terminology is confusing.
Trans Woman = biological man
Trans Man = biological woman.

I have absolutely seen plenty of blanket, offensive statements like that being thrown around on this site which is what irks me because it escalates what is otherwise a fair and needed discussion into mud slinging. Yesterday I was told i must be a transgender pervert for trying to call that out in a reasonable way because the poster believed that everyone must know that all trans people were "predatory, nefarious, sexual deviants". And I understand that some trans activists can be equally offensive in their manner when it comes to GC people but I don't think that is an excuse. Both are wrong to do that in my mind.

I can fully understand the issues with men in female only spaces and I do agree that trans women will have naturally had different life experience which may create some elements of male privilege/entitlements/harm unlike other biological women who aren't trans or who are trans men/non binary but I don't think you can say that applies to everyone the way that some posters do. I understand the concern of not being able to tell who's safe or not but I do think there are more respectful ways to have what's otherwise a fair conversation than name calling and labeling an entire minority group predatory. I have zero issue with people who can engage in a reasonable discussion without making offensive or transphobic statements.

Well I know that thanks, my issue is with posters who take it further than that and who do call trans people, particularly trans women offensive terms as a collective group.

And again, I agree with this as well but then there are also issues around use of language etc which mean that some trans men / non binary biologically female people will not feel welcomed into women's spaces. And many women do feel that trans men asking to be called men or asking for gender neutral language is actually erasing and censoring female experience. So I'm not sure it's as welcoming for them as you'd think. I know a couple of trans and non binary biological women who feel intimidated using women's bathrooms alone because they've been verbally and physically attacked by other women in the past.

So please Dan you tell me one innocent reason a man would enter single sex spaces apart from someone cleaning or performing maintenance. Males with a trans identity know they will cause distress and discomfort to women by entering those spaces, so what innocent reason can they have?

How is that different from labelling and entire group transphobes for not wanting a man in the ladies loos?

At no point did I do that...

But I assume you would have issue with people who did that? Or do they get a free pass?

I think some trans women believe they pass, feel unsafe in men's bathrooms or are unaware depending on the echo chamber they may exist in. I don't think it's always as nefarious as its made out to be. I think in some instances it's more about them feeling that they are living out their identity in practical ways or they don't know if others know they are trans and don't want to 'out' themselves. There's lots of reasons that don't involve automatically jumping to the conclusion that it must only be to distress or prey on women.

"And I understand that some trans activists can be equally offensive in their manner when it comes to GC people but I don't think that is an excuse. Both are wrong to do that in my mind."

A direct quote from my earlier post. You must have missed it.

So let me get this right. Issuing death threats, rape threats and threats of violence is equal to women calling men who want access their spaces not nice names is equal in your eyes?

But they know they are male and why is it women’s problem if they feel unsafe in men’s spaces? They know they are not supposed to be there but they do it anyway. So it’s not an innocent reason is it? It’s not like they accidentally walk through the wrong door. They make a conscious choice to ignore women’s boundaries.

Obviously not. Does that even need asking? Stop digging for gotchas where you won't find any. Any abusive behaviour is unacceptable and obviously death threats or any form of violence is at the extreme end of that irregardless of who is perpetrating it.

So you can understand why women don’t want trans identifying males in their spaces then?

As I've previously stated:

"I can fully understand the issues with men in female only spaces and I do agree that trans women will have naturally had different life experience which may create some elements of male privilege/entitlements/harm unlike other biological women "

"I understand the concern of not being able to tell who's safe or not"

Maybe read my posts properly

So you're on board with 'no males in female only spaces' then?

Assuming you're addressing me... yes why are you asking?

If you are a Transwoman you are a man, its very simple because in order to BE a Transwoman you HAVE to be a man.
I treat TW the same as I would any other man, with caution where necessary but as an individual as men are not one homogeneus lump. I am no more or less afraid of TW or as welcoming of them into women only spaces as any man

I didn't say that you did. but many people do, and they call us much worse, and with threats of violence thrown in for good measure.

Doesn't it shock you that TRAs can not only name call but Dox, swat. commit violent acts such as throwing soup over someone to rape, and yet they have been told, we don't want you in women's spaces etc. yet they are somehow the victim in all of this?

I think when you start to say that all trans people do this or even all trans women do this (because let's be honest that's usually who's referred to when we talk about harmful behaviours) then I do think that's a problem. Which is the point I was making. If any TRA acts in an abusive or violent way then they should absolutely be held to account as should anyone who acts in that way. But I think it's also problematic when people refer to trans people or even just trans women as a blanket group when there's diversity within that group. I do think it's transphobic to not be able to make the distinction between the harmful actions of some individuals and a whole group of people with one shared point of identity. That doesn't mean they need to be allowed into female only spaces, exclusion exists in those spaces for a reason, but it IS transphobic use of language to say things like "trans women are all sexual deviants/perverse/predatory/evil" or any of the other things I've seen written on this site.

Not as confusing as saying that biological men are women, no questions asked.

I honestly find that incredible hard to believe.