What would be the one thing that put you off hiring someone?

[greyrabbits]

Of all the things that would put you off giving someone a job, what’s the one thing that’s a definite no thanks.

Pronouns in bio. You just know they’re going to be disruptive, problematic and probably shit at the job.

Well that’s a whole other conversation! But I’ll tell you why I personally feel a bit resentful towards them. I think there are a million ways to be a woman. For example, I know extremely butch lesbians who don’t have a shred of femininity about them, but what people used to accept 10 years ago, and what the butch lesbians used to accept in themselves, was that they were butch lesbians, not men. It was a whole separate category and way of identifying in itself and it was a beautiful thing! Yes trans people existed but they were a small proportion of the population struggling with gender dysphoria. None of these butch lesbians ever thought they were men just cos they didn’t conform to gender stereotypes. They had a community of people just like them around them to support each other. Butchness was a whole sub-culture, there was a bar near where I used to live that was a well-known butch lesbian hang-out. You know what this bar is now? A trans/non-binary hang-out. The butch women have disappeared- many of the younger ones have been coerced into thinking they must be men because of how they express themselves and have socially transitioned to trans men or identify as non-binary....because never to have the urge to wear a dress or make-up must mean you’re not entirely female 🤣 sorry but it’s ridiculous. Sex is binary, it cannot be changed. It is a medical fact. Are you denying that you are female? Why can’t non-binary people be like “I don’t identify with many of the characteristics of my gender but I’m going to redefine what it means to be a woman” that’d be so much cooler and braver. Instead you’re just rejecting the whole idea of womanhood and, in the process, causing society to become more heteronormative and homophobic. What do you think happens now that butch lesbians have disappeared? They become less visible to society and therefore more discriminated against. Because everyone knows people are afraid of what they don’t know/can’t see. There are multiple other reasons I could argue against it, but that’s why I personally resent non-binary women.

I think I understand what you're trying to say. Here's my two cents:

I know you can't change biological sex. That's why it's called gender reassignment surgery, not sex reassignment surgery. Obviously you can't change biology.

Here is why I don't feel like a woman: I despise having breasts. Any amount of breasts at all. I used to literally dream of cutting them off with a kitchen knife. I also hate having a vagina. If I could choose to have a Ken Doll-like appearance for my genitals, I would. Do I enjoy sex? Hell yeah I enjoy sex. But I don't enjoy the fact that I can't remove my vagina after sex has finished. I've always felt more masculine. I've never felt feminine. But I also don't COMPLETELY identify as masculine. I wouldn't want to have a penis, either. Or balls. They seem uncomfortable to have. Hence, I'm somewhere on the non-binary or agender spectrum, but I just don't know exactly where.

Is therapy not the answer to all of this rather than identity and labels?

I doubt many of us love our breasts and genitals but they are part of our bodies same as every other part. I don’t understand what feeling like a woman or feminine has to do with anything. The fact remains you are one so are you better not to try and be comfortable with that fact?

I've been to therapy for it. Multiple times. All of the therapists I've seen have agreed that I'm not cisgender but fall somewhere under the transgender umbrella. It's not that I'm just uncomfortable with the parts that I have - I feel like physically ripping them off of my body. I have tried to be comfortable with the fact I was born a woman. I've worn makeup and dresses every day for months at a time (to try to reinforce the idea that I was born a woman. Obviously you don't have to wear makeup and dresses as a woman if you don't want to or feel the need to) and every day I cried and cried because it wasn't me. I felt like I was putting a mask on.

So yes, I've tried therapy. Even "old school" therapists who don't necessarily agree with or understand transgender people. And even they've agreed that I'm not cisgender.

I don't know what you want me to say. I'm finally coming to terms with the fact that I'm not cisgender. Never have been, never will be. I will never identify as the gender I was born as, and I'm okay with that.

But you are clearly seeing therapists that also hold gender ideology views. “Cisgender” is a contested term. Maybe you need a therapist that believes in biological reality rather than one who just affirms ideology

Asking how flexible we are on statutory deadlines (eh...not flexible at all) and WFH arrangements. People who seem to want to do as little as possible. No thanks love!

Also, not knowing crucial information - like a social worker not knowing statutory guidelines around visiting children on child protection plans. WTF!

Interviewing is fucking tedious and so many people are awful at interviews.

You're clearly not understanding.

It doesn't matter who I speak to, therapist or otherwise. It doesn't matter what some fucking transphobe on a Mumsnet thread thinks (I'm not talking about you specifically. Just generally). It doesn't matter how many times I try to do what people suggest - I do not identify as a woman. I will never identify as a woman.

It's not even a case of too much internet exposure - I was 12 when I first started feeling this way. Possibly earlier but I don't remember that far back in my life. I didn't have access to the internet. I had a computer in my room but the only thing I did was play The Sims 3 and listen to music on Windows Media Player. I had no outside influences either because I was a depressed pre-teen and I never went out anywhere except to school. All of my friends identified as the gender they were assigned with at birth.

I don't understand what you're not understanding.

But some people don’t believe in any of this. They believe you are a woman and that’s the beginning, middle and end of it. As what counts is biology and not identity. Anyway I don’t want to derail the thread further.

I understand that's what they believe but if they lived inside my head for even 1 day, they could no longer deny it. It's so fucking frustrating. It's angering. It's demeaning to feel this way all the time because I'm never fully comfortable.

But you simply ARE a woman. Whether you like it or not. There is no 'identifying' as anything.

As a woman, you can be / express that any way you want. There is no 'right' way to be male or female.

You may struggle with your relationship with your body - lots of women do. I have struggled a lot with my breasts on and off during my life, but that's immaterial to the fact that I'm a woman and will never be anything else.

Oh, fuck off.

How about extreme far left? I.E ‘We need to shoot all the wealthy people’?

It's just the truth though. No point in shooting the messenger.

Yeah that wouldn't be great either. No extreme politics in either direction. I mean I don't care what someone thinks in their head or does in their spare time, but if they started blurting out pro Tommy Robinson stuff or reciting Maoist manifestos within two minutes of meeting them it would definitely put me off!

It’s a great filter when you’re screening CV’s though. Straight in the bin.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I think it’s very important to listen to other (especially personal) perspectives rather than living in an echo chamber- which MN is IMO (on the GC side), so you’re likely to get slated whenever you bring it up unfortunately. What you describe is similar to what some of my non-binary friends describe, which I respect as it’s their personal experience. I can relate to an extent to what you say about your breasts. I’m not butch but I’m fairly androgynous and when I was younger I saw my breasts as a way to express your sexiness (for lack of a better word) as a woman and it made me dislike my breasts because that’s not how I felt I wanted to express my “sexiness” (this is the best way I can think to explain it, sorry if it’s not very clear). I felt sexy when I was wearing my skinny jeans, converse trainers, and shirt with the top button done up. And hair straightened to within an inch of its life with all the right spiky bits sticking up! (absolutely cringe at this haircut now but it was the early 2000s!) but I never doubted I was a woman or had some kind of identity crisis- after I became comfortable in my sexuality I strongly identified with being a lesbian woman and socialised with lots of other women who presented like me. However, if I was a teenager now I may well think I was non-binary because I was very impressionable (more so than most because I was confused about my sexuality) and it’s being heavily pushed as an option to young women who may be gay and/or do not conform to traditional gender stereotypes. Disliking your breasts is part of not conforming to gender stereotypes because breasts are so tied to clothing, how you present yourself and as a way to feminine. Disliking your breasts doesn’t mean you’re not a woman, it just means you’re not comfortable in the traditional, heteronormative version of being a woman. You’re just a different kind of woman and that is ok! And it’s something that used to be celebrated, in pride parades for example, but now rejecting the gender entirely just because you don’t conform seems to be what’s being celebrated at Pride. And it’s sad. I was able to become comfortable with my breasts as I grew older and my identify was validated by the fact different versions of women were celebrated (at pride, for example) and through the lesbian community. I feel like it’s now all going backwards. To me, being non-binary is like saying if you don’t conform to rigid, feminine ideals of what a woman is then you just aren’t one. You are though, you’re stuck with breasts and a vagina and that’s not going to change, so wouldn’t it be better to make the best of that and redefine what it means to be a woman on your own terms rather than try and deny that you are one? I do recognise that gender dysphoria is real and some trans people really struggle with being the sex they were born as. In those cases, if having gender reassignment surgery and living as the opposite gender cures that gender dysphoria then go for it. As long as someone is over 18 they should be able to do what they want, including identify as non-binary, however that doesn’t make it real. Can I ask, what’s the difference between a woman who recognises they’re female & uses she/her pronouns but is completely gender non-conforming, wears men’s clothes, dates women, likes watching football with a pint on a Saturday, doesn’t like her breasts, uses a strap-on everytime she has sex cos she likes to feel like a man with a penis penetrating her girlfriend (which a lot of lesbians do and still feel like women on their own terms) and a non-binary biological woman who uses they/them pronouns?

If you would be put off hiring someone for whatever reason, how far would you be put off taking the job or attending the interview if a person interviewing you had those same characteristics? E.g. you have a look at an interviewer’s LinkedIn profile before the interview and see a photo of a man with a neck tattoo and he/him in his bio (if those are the things that would put you off hiring).

Just to add, I think non-binary is hard to understand for some people because unlike with trans people, who are saying “I don’t feel like a woman, I feel like a man”, non-binary people seem to be saying “I don’t feel like a woman, but I don’t feel like a man” so you feel like nothing? I don’t think it’s possible to not feel like anything. If you feel deeply uncomfortable with your body parts but don’t want the opposite body parts, that seems to me like a mental health problem and the word non-binary has been made up to name these mental health problems. It’s just encouraging people to not get the help they need by normalising it. It’s not that different to people with body integrity dysphoria- where people feel an intense hatred for one of their specific body parts, one of their legs, say. Most people wouldn’t advocate for that person getting their leg amputated (although sometimes that’s a last resort) but usually these people get a shit load of psychotherapy to help them come to terms with their biological reality- that they have two legs, and can be helped to accept this. Shouldn’t a severe discomfort with one’s genitals be treated the same way rather than giving it a name and normalising it?

Agree with this. I'd probably have been sucked into this non binary/gender nonsense if I was a teenager/student now.

I'm heterosexual and have always rejected sex stereotypes - happier in jeans and a hoodie then and now. I'd often be mistaken for a boy and hated the unwanted attention (and sexual harassment) from having a petite frame and big boobs.

Over time, I came to accept myself as I am, although these days if I was younger, I'd probably have a breast reduction procedure just to make finding well-fitting clothes easier.

And, if I was still recruiting, I would be very wary of any pronoun-declarers in the roles I needed to fill. We needed sensible adults with excellent critical thinking skills who would get on with the job with minimal supervision and not bring unnecessary drama to work with them.

People who accept gender ideology without deeper thought just wouldn't fulfil those criteria.

Overpowering perfume or aftershave.

When the interviewee adressed only the male interviewer throughout the whole interview assuming he's 'in charge' when both myself and the other female interviewers were far more senior. 🙄He wasn't offered the job

Yeah, you're kind of meant to be judging/evaluating their professional credentials, not their personal ones? 🤔

Going by your posts on this thread all I can say is thank goodness you're retired and not in a position to wreck anyone's job prospects any more.

someone being able to fit in to the team and get along with no drama/disruption is almost equally as important in recruitment, as much as HR would like to argue otherwise.

Behaviours and emotional resilience were always listed on job descriptions and interview criteria as both were important to the roles. It wasn't about wrecking prospects but about building teams who would function well without drama.

Someone putting their gender identity and pronouns above any of that wouldn't be remotely suitable.