Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

[QOrion]

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

Although I'm guessing in the above example it wouldn't be specifically aimed at white MC women. But if privilege shields people from discrimination then surely white feminists are less impacted by sexism?

What about when a builder catcalls a middle class businesswoman? Is it just 'offensive' rather than misogynistic due to the social power imbalance?

OK I'll have a read.

A individual woman's statistical vulnerability to the harms of sexism depends on a variety of factors, her age, social and sconomic background, disability, sexuality and race. Basically every protected characteristic she holds puts her at greater risk statistically.
No, the builders actions are no less misogynistic if the woman is richer than he. Because as explained earlier sexism/misogyny is based on sex, and only sex, and when we look only at sex as per the definition of sexism, the man is the more powerful. So as long as she's a woman and he's a man, any abuse he dishes out is sexism.

I don’t think you have a clue about the complexity of the issues you are discussing, or the very real and prevalent harms of racial profiling / stereotyping/ generalising. Don’t you understand that the views you are promoting are the dominant ones? Because they play into racialised stereotypes.

Violence against women and girls is absolutely rooted in social norms/ cultures. The cultures/ norms that condone/ excuse/ support VAWG exist across all nations and ethnic groups. We can discuss/ challenge these cultures, without simplisms , generalisations or racial essentialism .

Charlie Kirk was himself part of/ a promoter of such cultures. He argued that wives should submit to their husbands, that women should be financially dependent on men, that they only need to go to uni to find a husband, that they belong in the domestic sphere , that they should be denied basic autonomy over their bodies, health and reproduction. He believed in forced pregnancy and birth for child rape victims.

It was astonishing that when I tried to call this out on another thread a load of mumsnetters jumped in to say I wasn’t allowed to discuss how misogynistic and violent these beliefs are because they were just “Christian” and I wouldn’t be allowed to say that if he were Muslim. What utter rubbish.

There are people of all faiths and none , and all ethnicities and none , who share these beliefs . and there are people of all faiths and all nationalities and all religions who reject them. challenge the ideas,- describe the ideas- not the person , and stop using race and skin colour and nationality and immigration status as a weapon to deflect when the perpetrator is white (oh he wasnt a bad guy, he was just an regular American Christian) and to demonise when they are brown (Islamic cultures are misogynistic and violent). Neither of these generalisations are true / reflect reality.

Are you happy with white men getting jobs just because they are white? Do you always assume that white people are qualified for the jobs they hold?

So I think it's rather crude timing to start pushing perpetual victimhood and making all white people out to be baddies. It's tiring. Really really tiring .

This

She does not hold intolerant opinions about trans people at all. Your opinions on womens rights are intolerant and hateful and misogynistic.

People are so outspoken on the trans situation but totally silenced by the 'be kind' narrative in this case. I mean, we always hear about the dangers of self ID etc and how so many transwomen are perverts/sex offenders, yet I'd wager the 1200 sexual assaults on that one night in Germany probably outnumber all European sex crimes by trans people in the last few years. Maybe the past decade.

Are the men who did those 1200 sexual assaults regularly in female spaces? It's not a competition you know. Both are bad. But there is no social and government policy to normalise sexual assault, there is a social and government policy to normalise males in female spaces.

No. Because regardless of class, men as a group hold more power in society than women. Even "enlightened" Western society is built on patriarchy.

I don't know much about CK but I think Hirsi Ali makes some good points, even if I don't agree with her on everything.

That event was New Year's Eve, December 31, 2015, January 1st, 2016. And in Cologne, people go out and celebrate and they drink. And I think the women, especially the women had no idea that this time it was going to be different. What they didn't know was about a game called the rape game. And this is very common in various North African countries, various middle Eastern countries. And what happens is you get a group of men, a large group of men who form three concentric circles, an inner circle that they pick a victim or a number of female victims, and they surround them and they start attacking these women.

And then there's the second circle, which is cheering the rapists on. And then there is a larger outer circle that is keeping outsiders from coming into that circle. And this is something that obviously the German women in Cologne had never experienced before and over 500 and what? I think I have the number in the book, reported that they were raped and robbed and groped and harassed and subjected to this particular horrifying game. And unfortunately less than 50 of those cases made it to an investigation and almost no one to a conviction.

First of all, I think we have to take the time to understand where these men come from. Some of these societies are still tribal. They are religious and they've been influenced by radical Islam for many decades now. So there are young men now in their teens and twenties who were born into an Islamist society, not just a Muslim society, but an Islamic society. And then you have also societies where order is completely broken down. Places like Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan. So even the existing tribal order or religious order is just completely broken down and that means that these young men are exposed a great deal of violence, especially a great deal of violence against women, that's number one. Number two, even where there is some form of order and tradition. Women are divided into good women versus bad women.

And good women are those who are obedient and submissive and stay at home and are covered from head to toe. And everyone else is a bad woman who doesn't live by that code. So when these men come to Europe, when they come to the west and they see women dressed as they please, free, going about their business, they think of them as bad women. And on top of that, as one Egyptian friend told me who is male, these men, when they think about European women, their only knowledge or acquaintance with European women or white women is through Hollywood movies, pornography and so on. And so they come extremely prejudice thinking these women are prey. They're there for the taking and their men do not protect them. And so that is why for them it seems sort of natural to play the rape game in their twos and threes and more.

And they look at this women and they attack them, they have no empathy for them. And I was talking to some of the perpetrators and witnessed some of these court cases, the men, even after they're convicted or during the trial process, everyone is looking for them to express some sign of remorse and there is none. There is no empathy. There is not remorse because the men who perpetrate these acts don't think that they've done something wrong. In fact, many of them feel that something wrong is been done to them by dragging them to court or sentencing them. So it's just a glaring culture, a glaring clash of cultures and values and a clash of civilizations.

I think that if you have people who are Muslim, but not Islamist, when they come into Europe or America, if you take them through a process of immersion in the values, the norms, the culture of democracy and liberalism and tolerance and equality, that's one thing. If you just say, "Well, you're welcome and you have access to all the services that the welfare state has to offer, which is free shelter, free education, free health care, free food." But you don't educate them, they end up going to the Islamist platforms or rather the Islamist platforms come and recruit them and preach at them.

And so, I think it's an understatement to say that there is this clash of values, but right now it's the Islamists who are working very, very hard through their channels of dour or proselytization to win the hearts and the minds of the immigrants, refugees, the asylum seekers, the European leadership is doing very, very little to win their hearts and minds. They're giving them free food and free healthcare, but they are not giving them or encouraging them to take any part of their values and their norms.

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/think-biblically/2021/immigration-islam-womens-rights

With all due respect your posts are of the most fanatical and deranged that I have read on mumsnet.

I think that if you have people who are Muslim, but not Islamist, when they come into Europe or America, if you take them through a process of immersion in the values, the norms, the culture of democracy and liberalism and tolerance and equality, that's one thing. If you just say, "Well, you're welcome and you have access to all the services that the welfare state has to offer, which is free shelter, free education, free health care, free food." But you don't educate them,

This is extremely racist. There are Muslim people all over the world who are vastly more educated, liberal and tolerant than many, many pp’s are demonstrating themselves to be on this thread. The vast majority of Muslim people are normal, decent humans, not criminals, who do not look at / treat white women as “prey”. I think you need to spend some time getting to know some people of different faiths/ cultures from around the world.

I'd also point out that I've mentioned several times that this is a cultural issue not a racial one. Islam isn't an ethnicity any more than Conservatism is.

Now that is the pot calling the kettle black! Considering the misogynistic delusions you post.

Thank you for sharing that article.

Sure sure 😘

It is disingenuous to say that Islam isn’t tied to ethnicity. It absolutely is in the same way that Judaism is.

That was written by a Somalian ex-Muslim.

I do agree though with your statement, though, but it also applies to men in general. Most are fine but that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge problematic behaviors and attitudes. Nobody is saying all Muslims are like that.

However, are you going to seriously try and deny that things aren't great for women in many middle eastern countries? Is it just a wild coincidence that some men from cultures where mob rapes are relatively common enact similar things when they come to Europe. Or did I miss the night where 1200 women were sexually assaulted by western men?

Personally, my tolerance doesn't extend to tolerating misogyny and VAWG. Misogynistic views aren't just 'a different perspective'.

Are you suggesting that ethnicity is the driving factor behind the oppression of women in the middle east?

Which ethnicity?

Indian? Nigerian? Indonesian? Bangladeshi? Turkish? Eygyptian? Pakastani? Ethiopian? Sudanese? Filipino? Chinese? Each of those countries has a Muslim population in the 10a to 100s of millions- and there any many other countries globally with millions of Muslims.

Or did you mean Persian / Middle Eastern/ Arab? Or perhaps you meant non-white?

Islam is no more tied to race than Christianity.

👏👏

I think it's more logical to focus on the principles/beliefs of an ideology rather than the colour of the followers.

Maybe it's better not to post articles written by a known liar.

www.irishtimes.com/news/somalia-born-critic-of-islam-admits-lying-to-gain-asylum-1.1003537

BollyKnickerz · 14/09/2025 19:48

Unless I've missed it (which is possible?) I've not seen one thread on the poor young white girl in America who was stabbed senselessly and so violently by a black stranger and was left to die , looking terrified, and clutched herself in a ball until she collapsed and died in a pool of blood on the floor. All her fellow passengers (all black ) did nothing.

Did nothing as a maniac hacked the poor woman to death.

It's heartening to know that, had you been there, you would have disarmed him and restrained him in a jiu jitsu hold, until the Police arrived.

@QOrion I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light.

My take on it all, fwiw:

Like you I'd never heard of Charlie Kirk prior to his murder. I certainly do not 'deify' him - he's a flawed human being like us all. However as a Christian myself I have argued against the misrepresentation of him, and the essence of what he said, by people who are simply quoting out of context soundbites and who would have no understanding of the promotion of God's Truth by Charlie. He had a deep love for all humankind according to his principles of Faith.

On the issue you are raising here, Charlie was set against diversity, equity and inclusion and asserted that the DEI programme was, in itself, racist and discriminatory. I agree with Charlie's pov and believe that the colour of anyone's skin should not make any difference. We are all made in the image of God and the outer wrapping is (should be) irrelevant - he was trying to work towards a time when it is irrelevant. Cut us and we all bleed.

He argued against people being stuck in the past and pointed out how damaging that is when it prevents people moving forward. Being stuck in the wickedness of the past seems to be some people's comfort blanket and it's easier to blame all others for their current situation, than to look to themselves, or to use the glib line 'it's our culture'. He believed in a meritocracy, where it's the best human being and character for the job.

You felt compelled to repeat your pov here, so I guess I felt compelled to respond in balance. For me, it's not about painting him in the best possible light, but just correcting lies about him - if people do not hear or see the full context of his words, then they become lies by omission. I guess I was just shocked, but then not shocked by the amount of hatred pouring out towards him and then his grieving widow.

I'm done now trying to explain the Godly Christian mindset of a man that I never knew. People will still continue to judge him according to what is in their own heart and to repeat the soundbites to justify their stance. Lies hate Truth. Playing the person and not the ball seems to be the way. Racism is wicked.