Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

[QOrion]

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

Charlie Kirk was right wing, if not alt-right. He was a clear racist, homophobic, misogynist who wrapped it all up in a more palatable decency so people overlooked his well dressed, middle class bigotry.. same as Farage, same as most of the Republican party.

He made racists feel safe in expressing their racism.

One of the very tolerant left no doubt.

He was a smug dickhead, who is good at debating, he was apparently a very close friend of Candace who has some extreme views, she denied his racism.

I'm not surprised he had racist stereotypical views, he is the a stereotypical middle class, all American white man, who only admired similar people who has a similar financial status.

Utter tripe.

I didn't really agree with him but let's not pretend there aren't loads of smug lefties with similarly tribal attitudes who can't possibly accept that somebody who disagrees with them isn't a fascist/bigot/racist/etc.

Let us all be honest, this man was a nasty , individual.
I feel sorry for his children and I hope that they are better people than their father .

I think racism should be condemned, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that men from misogynistic middle eastern cultures respect or condone our culture or that most of them would return any of our empathy towards them.

I can't look at Afghanistan and the rape culture endemic in places like Egypt and then defend these men when they do it over here. I truly can't comprehend people that do. Studies like the UN Women study found that 90% of men in four of the biggest ME countries admitted to sexually harassing women in public because it's 'fun'. And while women are dying under rubble and being forbidden to even go near windows, yet alone outside, people are too scared to even voice an opinion on this.

Prior to the last decade we'd never seen the types of mob sexual assault common to places like Egypt. Since then we've had numerous examples, including the 1200 women sexually assaulted in one evening in Germany (with around 500 estimated rapes on that night). Even over here more than 50% of Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal.

Nobody should suffer violence or harassment for their views but we don't have to defend misogyny and homophobia. And we certainly shouldn't have to tolerate thousands of sexual assaults. But the same women that write articles on mansplaining are more likely to align with the rapists in this instance it seems. It makes me feel like a lot of people just care about virtue signalling more than anything else. That's the only explanation I can see for somebody not challenging rapists and misogynists because of their ethnicity.

Who has defended rape and misogyny?

It's usually indirectly, but plenty of people are branding those with concerns about immigration as racist. Some of the common responses are:

"But white men do it too".

"Most sexual assaults are by white men/somebody you know/etc".

"The problem isn't Muslim men, it's men".

These statements aren't wrong but they're used to try and deflect criticism away from misogynistic cultures/mentalities in a way that would never be seen in other situations. Essentially whataboutery.

Of course white men commit the majority of sexual assaults in majority white countries. However, when Afghan men are found to be 3x more likely to commit a sex crime and come from a country where 90% of men openly admit to sexually harassing women for fun, I think there are tangible concerns.

Why won't anybody address the 1200 sexual assaults in one night? Every single time people pretend they haven't seen the post. Why haven't we seen this type of thing before now given how common it is in some countries? Why aren't western men doing it?

Nobody wants to answer these questions but I don't think they're unreasonable given that we're the ones accommodating said men and will be living alongside them.

People are so outspoken on the trans situation but totally silenced by the 'be kind' narrative in this case. I mean, we always hear about the dangers of self ID etc and how so many transwomen are perverts/sex offenders, yet I'd wager the 1200 sexual assaults on that one night in Germany probably outnumber all European sex crimes by trans people in the last few years. Maybe the past decade.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.
However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it. I'm already aware that women from different cultures experience different forms of abuse and that there are patterns to this. So I wouldn't shy away from that conversation.

Must you encourage her to come back?😉
I will give her credit for an epic flounce. Haven't seen a Scarlett O'Hara act like that in awhile.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.

I don't think this is what's happening in many cases though. Morelike, this is the defacto response to anybody trying to raise concerns about certain cultural issues. Because as above it's cultures that are the issue and ethnicity is incidental. Not that there aren't some trying to stir racial divide, but there are also many that are genuinely concerned.

However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it.

You've surely heard about some of the cases of honour killings etc? Immigrants or second generation UK residents who are murdered by their extended family when returning to their home countries, for bringing shame upon the family? You must be aware of what is happening in Afghanistan?

Of course 'offending' is an ambiguous term because many of the things we'd consider gross breaches of human rights aren't considered crimes in other countries.

They have been notorious for right wing propaganda since they started.

That's scary!

If she's making veiled threats and encouragements for people to be violent in response before she's buried her husband, she's part of the problem, not somebody who is just reporting on it.
Why make excuses for such behaviour? I get that she'd be angry, but that's a crazy reaction.

A thoughtful and balanced post.

Of course. I work with vulnerable women, there are few forms of abuse I'm not familiar with unfortunately.
What I'm asking for is evidence of offending patterns that support the view that men, in the UK, because we need a comparator under the same law, from 'other cultures' are more dangerous than white men.
I know that some men come from cultures where some people in that culture support extreme misogyny, but I genuinely don't know how this translates to stats and risk in the UK. Do you? Beyond extrapolating from the fact that some Muslim men believe in honour killing, all 'men from other cultures' represent a higher risk.

I'm not Black but I'm a woman of colour and I hear you loud and clear OP. White women will never understand what they're asking of us when they want us to shut up and respect that this despicable individual has died. It's nothing personal for them, being in their white bubble of safety where he's just a lovely man who likes to debate with kids.

Well, there seems to be some data showing that Afghan males are 3x more likely to be convicted of sex crimes. Sky did an analysis of Farage's claim that they were 22x more likely and said it was more like 3x - article should be on first page of Google if you look it up.

There are lots of other stats. In France it was either asylum seekers or recent immigrants that were now responsible for 20% of the most serious sex crime category including rape, despite being 1-2% of the population. In another country it was something like 50% of gang rapes in the last five years.

I can probs find the links from other threads but not right now as I'm due up at 4am. And of course the 1200 NYE sexual assaults in Germany.

When people say 'the problem is just men' I'm not sure I agree with this approach.

We could argue there's no need to worry about XL bullies because the problem is still just dangerous dogs.

We could tell GC feminists that the problem is still just male entitlement and doesn't need addressed separately.

That they were better as slaves as their crime rates were lower then?

Unless there's more context that's pretty bad. I could almost see his point about black pilots (not saying I agree) as he's saying that he might wonder if they'd got the job for diversity reasons if there were quotas - although from what I've read the tests remain the same so it's a moot point.

On a different note. If white people can't experience racism due to power imbalance, can white women experience sexism from black men?

I've heard discussion around the misogyny in rap music but a black man from the projects is surely punching up against a middle class white woman so he doesn't have the necessary power for it to be sexism.

Of course a white woman can experience sexism from a black man. Sexism is about an imbalance of power based in sex. While she is of the more powerful race, he is of the more powerful sex, so he can be sexist and she can be racist, both at the same time. Go figure. As for which power is the strongest, on a personal level, I'd say his, at a societal level hers.